Textkit Logo

Philosophers and rhetoricians, Welcome!

Postby ethopoeia » Tue May 22, 2007 7:09 pm

Last edited by ethopoeia on Wed May 23, 2007 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ethopoeia
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:33 pm

Postby Kasper » Tue May 22, 2007 10:50 pm

Perhaps the genius of this phrase is the exact ambiguity you describe?
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:01 am
Location: Melbourne

Postby Bert » Tue May 22, 2007 11:18 pm

Bert
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 2:28 am
Location: Arthur Ontario Canada

Postby annis » Tue May 22, 2007 11:24 pm

By the grace of his own god.

?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Postby ethopoeia » Wed May 23, 2007 10:28 pm

Yes, the mystery lies indeed in the term δαιμων. More concretely, in the meaning of the collocation κατα + δαιμονα (accusative).

Wikipedia gives as the exact translation "true to his own spirit", which is a nice, yet wrong translation. The most faithful interpretation I've found is "in accordance with his daemon", which successfully translates κατα as "according to", yet fails to unearth the meaning of δαιμων intended by Admiral Morrison.

The solution to the enigma must be the actual meaning of δαιμων preceded by κατα. Any idea? :)
Last edited by ethopoeia on Thu May 24, 2007 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ethopoeia
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:33 pm

Postby chad » Wed May 23, 2007 11:34 pm

when i first heard about this inscription i wondered if, in addition to its literal meaning, it was an allusion to how the ancient grks used to write RIP, i.e. καταχθονίοις θεοῖς (abbrev ΚΘ) on gravestones I've seen in museums, i think that's the wording they used from memory, or maybe it was the other way round, ie ΘΚ...
chad
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 757
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:55 am

Postby ThomasGR » Thu May 24, 2007 5:39 am

ThomasGR
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:49 pm

Postby perispomenon » Thu May 24, 2007 6:47 am

ethopoeia wrote:actual meaning of δαιμων preceded by κατα.


In Homer daimonie can sometimes mean a self-willed person.

But I wouldn't dare say that 'will' or 'wish' is the actual meaning of δαιμων.

Found this in Middel Liddell: "kata daimona, nearly"
User avatar
perispomenon
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: Mijdrecht

Postby ThomasGR » Thu May 24, 2007 7:08 am

ThomasGR
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:49 pm

Postby ethopoeia » Thu May 24, 2007 12:25 pm

User avatar
ethopoeia
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:33 pm

Postby perispomenon » Fri May 25, 2007 6:10 am

ethopoeia wrote:Some better translations have managed to grasp the ancient meaning of the term relating it to 'spirit' ("to the divine spirit within himself", "the geniality in his mind", "true to his own spirit"), as used by Socrates or Plato, yet I believe they fail to convey the actual meaning intended by Jim's father with the idiomatic collocation κατα followed by the noun δαιμονα in accusative


Somehow the way you posed your question, I thought you had inside information on what his father intended and that you wanted to test us :-)

After reading ThomasGR's posts, I think 'true to his own spirit' is a fine translation. What's your reason for thinking it should be something else?
User avatar
perispomenon
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: Mijdrecht

Postby ethopoeia » Sat May 26, 2007 9:20 am

User avatar
ethopoeia
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:33 pm

Postby perispomenon » Sat May 26, 2007 10:13 am

ethopoeia wrote:And, just like Venus means "Love" in Ovid, I'm convinced that δαιμων means something very different here. ThomasGR has mentioned Neoplatonism (?)


I found this where there is also a listing of ancient references.
User avatar
perispomenon
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: Mijdrecht

Postby Arvid » Sun May 27, 2007 3:04 am

phpbb
Arvid
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:06 am
Location: Seattle WA

Postby ThomasGR » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:25 am

ethopoeia, after such a long period of silence, I thnk, it's time to reveal us what that old Greek-Spanish dictionary has to tell. Don't keep me more under this spell.
ThomasGR
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:49 pm

Postby ethopoeia » Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:58 am

User avatar
ethopoeia
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:33 pm


Return to The Academy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: tiennt121 and 10 guests