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James 2:14

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James 2:14

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat May 12, 2007 6:05 pm

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Postby IreneY » Sat May 12, 2007 7:09 pm

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Postby modus.irrealis » Sun May 13, 2007 8:59 pm

Thanks for your reply.

IreneY wrote:I think you are right (although I'd go for "deeds" or "actions" maybe for "erga" :) )


To be honest, I just cheated and copied another translation and made changes to what was in front of "faith." :)

I've read here (I don't know how reliable this site is mind you since it just came up in a google search and I didn't browse through it) that there are other reasons for the alternative translations.
The way I read it theexplanation they give is wrong. I don't really know if it goes against Paul's teachings but James writes well enough that, if he wanted to talk about "such a faith" he would have mentioned it either in 14 or at least at 17.


The link you gave seems to be dead but google has a cached version and I read something similar -- a lot of the discussion on this passage is obviously theologically motivated, but I can only assume that there is some grammatical justification. The only thing I can find is that this is an example of the anaphoric use of the definite article, and this is even claimed by Daniel Wallace, who I gather is a respected scholar of Greek. But if the article is being used this way I don't see why it wouldn't then be translated

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no deeds? Can the faith [that he has] save him?

which reads the way you read verse 17, which in context seems to be recapping and giving the answer to the rhetorical question in 14. I still don't see how it's possible that ἡ πίστις if it's being used anaphorically to refer to the "aforementioned" faith, how it suddenly changes to mean "that kind of faith"? That's why I was hoping somebody else knew of similar examples in the NT, since my searching didn't find anything.

Although I think I was wrong that even αὕτη ἡ πίστις would give "that kind of faith" here. Like you say, why wouldn't the author just come out and say "such a faith" if that's what he meant.
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Re: James 2:14

Postby joja » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:19 am

Hello,

The works is your life, how you display the Spiritual Faith
that is within you. There is a natural "faith" and a perfect
Spiritual Faith. You need Spiritual Faith to please God.
And the "works" of God are spiritual inspired works.
IN OTHER WORDS, JUST GOING TO A CHURCH WITHOUT
A REAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD IS SIMPLY DEAD WORKS.

And claiming to believe the Holy Bible and have great faith in God
and yet not obeying His commandments is also FAITH WITHOUT WORKS.

REMEMBER, THE SCRIPTURE SAYS "THE DEVIL BELIEVES AND TREMBLES"

So, we must practice what we preach and go all the way with GOD.
After all, WHAT'S GREATER THAN THE gift of Eternal LIFE?

READ ALL THE CHAPTER BELOW FOR A CLEARER MEANING.

James 2:14-26 (New King James Version)

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
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Re: James 2:14

Postby spiphany » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:04 am

Hi joja
Just a friendly suggestion: this is a language board, not a theology board, and I think most people would appreciate it if you actually made posts with questions about the Greek or Latin languages rather than filling the forums with biblical quotations. I think we're capable of reading the Bible for ourselves if we choose, and such quotations do not really contribute to the discussion.

- Brenda
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: James 2:14

Postby joja » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:42 pm

Hi Brenda,

Yes, I can see your point.
I plan to leave Textkit fairly soon.

Although in some cases to really "understand' the translation
of a Biblical word, it takes a little more than just being a scholar.
I think if I was a Greek scholar in search of a "perfect translation'
of a certain Biblical word, I'd appreciate all the Biblical input re: that word.

It's time consuming for me too, to post as I have.
I wonder if everyone feels the same as you do re: my posts?
Nevertheless, I can't stay long.

Joja
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Re: James 2:14

Postby jaihare » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:21 am

joja wrote:Hi Brenda,

Yes, I can see your point.
I plan to leave Textkit fairly soon.

Although in some cases to really "understand' the translation
of a Biblical word, it takes a little more than just being a scholar.
I think if I was a Greek scholar in search of a "perfect translation'
of a certain Biblical word, I'd appreciate all the Biblical input re: that word.

It's time consuming for me too, to post as I have.
I wonder if everyone feels the same as you do re: my posts?
Nevertheless, I can't stay long.

Joja


Yep, I think so. We're interested in Greek. There are some here who are interested in Greek for the sake of reading the NT; others who are interested in Greek for the sake of Greek. I don't think anyone's interested in necroposting and diatribes. You're free to do whatever you like, but I agree with the above in not seeing the reason for your religiously-charged posts.

Regards,
Jason
Jason Hare
jaihare@gmail.com

τοὺς θεοὺς εὔχομαί σοι διδόναι ὑγίειαν καὶ σωτηρίαν καὶ ἀγαθὰ πολλά.
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