AVRAHAM wrote:I was curious what anyone's take was on the English translation of Luke 11:17b ? In Greek it reads:
"Ï€Î±Í‚ÏƒÎ± Î²Î±ÏƒÎ¹Î»ÎµÎ¹ÌÎ± ÎµÌ“Ï†á¾¿ ÎµÌ”Î±Ï…Ï„Î·Ì€Î½ Î´Î¹Î±Î¼ÎµÏÎ¹ÏƒÎ¸ÎµÎ¹Í‚ÏƒÎ±, ÎµÌ“ÏÎ·Î¼Î¿Ï…Í‚Ï„Î±Î¹, ÎºÎ±Î¹Ì€ Î¿á¼¶ÎºÎ¿Ï‚ ÎµÌ“Ï€Î¹Ì€ Î¿á¼¶ÎºÎ¿Î½, Ï€Î¹ÌÏ€Ï„ÎµÎ¹."
I translate this as "Any kingdom divided against itself will become desolate, and any house against itself will fall. (or a house against a house will fall)"
Well, Rev John Dobson M.A., B.D. Translates this as: "Every kingdon in rebellion against itself is laid waste by ethnic cleansing, and a ruling family split by rebellion collapses."
I am not as expert in Koine Greek as I'd like to be (yet), and was wondering if I was off so bad in my translating. Because I really don't see his tanslation in the passage.... Thanks for your help everyone.
AVRAHAM wrote:Okay. I have more to ask here than just a translation. I do have lexica. Well, I have noticed that there is a common theme with Christians, who translate the New Testament. That the idea is "not to find the best way to put the Greek into English, but the best way to give the meaning of what the original writer meant." Is this not a poor way to translate a text? Yes. A paraphrase. To me, it takes away from the text. Especially one of a spiritual nature....
AVRAHAM wrote:Okay. I have more to ask here than just a translation. I do have lexica. Well, I have noticed that there is a common theme with Christians, who translate the New Testament. That the idea is "not to find the best way to put the Greek into English, but the best way to give the meaning of what the original writer meant."
I think that the ethnic cleansing part has gone well past translation into far fetched speculation.Every kingdon in rebellion against itself is laid waste by ethnic cleansing
AVRAHAM wrote:Is this not a poor way to translate a text? Yes. A paraphrase. To me, it takes away from the text. Especially one of a spiritual nature....
Lost Cause wrote:
Dyanmic equivalence is part translation, part art, part editorializing.
I was wondering if anyone knew if other ancient texts, Greek or otherwise has this translation dilema? And if so, or if not, why on either?
except the KJV and NKJV, which is based completely off of the Textus Receptus of the Codex Vaticanus. No?
Bert wrote:I think that the ethnic cleansing part has gone well past translation into far fetched.
AVRAHAM wrote:So which is more important than? When one says "this is what the writer REALLY meant to say", are they not adding their own ideas to the text? And thus spoiling it, on both a spiritual AND textual basis? I mean, some things are so idiomatic, that grammar requires a translation to compensate. However, on other areas where it may be a bit awkward, is not possible for the reader to figure the passage out? I mean, even on the toughest passage, 3 seconds in a Bible dictionary could clear it up. For example, "ethnic cleansing"??? I thought that was pretty silly personally....
Perfect. That's exactly what I mean. For some parts it is only logical that it is so idiomatic that it needs to be cleared in translation. As in "Ï„á½· á¼Î¼Î¿á½¶ ÎºÎ±á½¶ ÏƒÎ¿á½·". And while one may infer something from the passage, that needs to be left up to the reader. Anything else is just commentary.Bert wrote:What is more important? Not what the writer really MEANT to say but what he really SAID. He said nothing about ethnic cleansing.
A nation divided against itself will go down hill whether through ethnic cleansing or through other means.
I'll use John 2:4 as an example. ÎºÎ±á½¶ Î»á½³Î³ÎµÎ¹ Î±á½Ï„á¿‡ á½ á¼¸Î·ÏƒÎ¿á¿¦Ï‚Î‡ Ï„á½· á¼Î¼Î¿á½¶ ÎºÎ±á½¶ ÏƒÎ¿á½·, Î³á½»Î½Î±Î¹; Rendering this as; "And Jesus said to her; Woman what to me and to you"? is not really translating. It not only is unclear but also misleading. "Woman, what do we have in common" is better but still misleading. In English (at least where I live,) addressing someone as "woman" is rude and disrespectful. Making it; "Dear woman, what do we have in common" though it is not as litteral, is a much better translation because it is saying in English what the text says in Greek.
Now if someone would want to say what the author really MEANT to say he may come up with something like this; Dear woman, my purpose on earth is much different from yours so even if you don't understand what I am doing, please bear with me. Now we have gone past translating.
IreneY wrote:Look, it's one thing to use the equivalent expression and quite another to try to interpret the text by paraphrasing. Obviously when a text says "it rains cats and dogs" I will turn it to "it rains chair legs" or "it rains priests" in Greek and vice versa.
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