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Iliad 3:195

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Iliad 3:195

Postby Bert » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:45 pm

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Re: Iliad 3:195

Postby Paul » Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:50 am

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Postby Bert » Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:14 am

Paul, can you please explain?
Here is my translation of lines 192 - 196
Come tell me about this one, dear child, who is that.
Though he is not as tall as Agamemnon the son of Atreus,
he is broader to look upon in shoulders and chest.
His armour is laying on the rich soil
but he himself, as a ram, is going among the ranks of men, inspecting.

If oi( is a dative of disadvantage then 'his' is not in the text but is assumed. That's possible.
But for a dative of disadvantage to make sense Odysseus would have to be better off with the armour but he laid it down himself. Priam, who was watching, would have seen that.
I can't make any sense at all of an ethical dative, especially not with an intransitive verb.
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Postby Paul » Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:51 am

Bert wrote:"His armour is laying on the rich soil"

If oi( is a dative of disadvantage then 'his' is not in the text but is assumed.


Hi Bert,

I don't understand what you mean; can you flesh it out for me?

Why is use of οἱ in 3.195 any different from its use in 1.104?

Cordially,

Paul
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Postby Bert » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:52 am

Last edited by Bert on Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Paul » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:15 am

Hi Bert,

Nice summation of the dative, by the way.

Bert wrote:The long and the short of it is; I can’t see how oi( in line 195 can be a dative of (dis)advantage nor an ethical dative.
What I meant by
Bert wrote:
If oi( is a dative of disadvantage then 'his' is not in the text but is assumed.

is; I took oi( as a datie of possession so that is why I translated it with 'his.' If it is actually a dative of advantage then oi( would be something like 'the armour was laying on the ground for him.'


From Monro: "The so-called dativus commodi, 'ethical dative,' &c, need not be separated from the general usage. Note however that -- The Dative of the Personal Pronoun is very often used where we should have a Possessive agreeing with a Noun in the clause."

From Goodwin's "Greek Grammar" (1170), under the discussion of "dative of advantage or disadvantage: "Sometimes this dative has a force which seems to approach that of a possessive genitive."

Similarly in Smyth, ktl.

I realize that you know all this. I share your frustration with the haziness of this typology of the dative (and other cases). But it is good to remember that these categories are the inventions of grammarians. A\ propos, here is Leonard Palmer: "The categories to which grammarians affix their various labels are nothing more than associational groups or 'fairy rings' into which words naturally fall in virtue of their meaning."

I think it's safe to say that the dative in our example connotes neither location, nor instrument. Hence it belongs to that larger 'fairy ring' called the 'true dative' comprising dative of the indirect object, dative of (dis)advantage, ethical dative, dative of possession, ktl.

I am not convinced that one need know much more than this. Context matters.

Cordially,

Paul
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Postby Bert » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:22 am

Strange as this may seem; I know what you mean.
Thanks Paul.
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