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Pepomfa

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Pepomfa

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:40 pm

Is there an obscure rule, subsumed with the other rules by the concept 'Euphony of Consonants,' to which one can ascribe the present perfect active form of the verb [face=SPIonic]pe/mpw[/face] being [face=SPIonic]pe/pomfa[/face]? I really do not want to have to memorize six principal parts of each verb; the four principal parts of Latin verbs are hard enough to remember... (all I do is complain ;) )
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby Emma_85 » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:47 pm

Hmm... I really don't know...<br />I just learned it (as I had to learn all the other words):<br />[face=SPIonic]pempw, pemyw, epemya, pepomfa, pepemmai, epemfqhn, pemfqhsomai[/face]<br /><br />It's not that difficult, really, because eventhough you can't possibly remember everything, all you have to do is recognise the form. So if you learn them all now, even if you do forget some, it's enough (IMHO). :)
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby annis » Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:07 pm

Nope. You have to memorize those prinicipal parts.<br /><br />Having said that, there are certain tendencies which can be helpful in understanding the character of certain changes, even if they aren't usefully predictable.<br /><br />See "Qualitative Vowel Gradation" in the vowel change section of Smyth (p. 15 of my edition). Ablaut explains the [face=SPIonic]o[/face] in [face=SPIonic]pe/pomfa[/face].
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:20 pm

Thank you for your... :'( help. Though, in seriousness, that did lighten the burden a bit. Thanks. ;D
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby Raya » Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:46 pm

I always had the feeling myself that there has to be some other way than learning 6 principal parts for every verb (or 7, as Emma shows us! :o)...<br /><br />Basically, what you're seeing when [face=SPIonic]pe/mpw[/face] becomes [face=SPIonic]pe/pomfa[/face] is a change in vowel grade. Greek morphology shows something called ablaut, where you have a root (I'm not sure if 'root' is the correct term), and by inserting different vowels between the letters of this root you get different types of words. So, for instance, if we take the root [face=SPIonic]klp[/face], we have:<br /><br />e-grade: [face=SPIonic]kle/ptw[/face] (verb: to steal - note how a great many verbs show the e-grade...)<br />o-grade: [face=SPIonic]kloph/[/face] (noun: theft - there are a number nouns representing an object related to the verb in this manner which also show the o-grade)<br /><br />(There is also a 0-grade (zero grade - no vowel, or no [face=SPIonic]e[/face] or [face=SPIonic]o[/face] at any rate), but I can't think of a word from [face=SPIonic]klp[/face] which shows it, or any pattern in meaning about it...)<br /><br />Mind you, I'm a beginner myself and not entirely sure about this concept of ablaut - I really would rather have someone more knowledgeable explain it properly!<br /><br />Sadly, the appearance of the different vowel grades isn't really predictable - it's more something you notice 'after the fact' - but since there are some patterns connected with them, knowing about them can help in learning vocabulary.<br /><br />So: I don't know about any hard-and-fast rules which would alert you when to expect a change in vowel grade, but do be aware that [face=SPIonic]pe/mpw[/face] is one of many verbs to have a present ind. act. showing the e-grade but a perfect ind. act. showing the o-grade...<br /><br />I hope that is more helpful than confusing! :-X
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby annis » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:30 pm

[quote author=Raya link=board=2;threadid=599;start=0#5380 date=1062798379]<br /><br />Mind you, I'm a beginner myself and not entirely sure about this concept of ablaut - I really would rather have someone more knowledgeable explain it properly!<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Another tutorial is in the works which will address this topic. :)
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby klewlis » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:51 pm

I can't even tell you how many hours I spent practicing and memorizing principle parts when I took greek classes... recording them, listening to them, writing them out, drilling them, etc etc etc. <br /><br />It's a necessary evil :(
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby Emma_85 » Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:09 am

Evil, yes. But the most evil words of all are: [face=SPIonic]i(sthmi, tiqhmi, didomi and [/face] [face=SPIonic] i(hmi[/face]<br /> :-\ I've just realised I don't know them anymore, I'll have relearn them, again... (well at least I still know all the principal parts of [face=SPIonic]didomi[/face])
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby Clemens » Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:27 pm

Hi,<br /><br />Ablaut can also be found in English, German and the other indoeuropean languages.<br /><br />sing - sang - sung<br />singen - sang - gesungen (German)<br /><br />So you'll have to learn these principle parts. I'm afraid there's no getting round it... :)
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby annis » Sat Sep 06, 2003 1:42 pm

[quote author=klewlis link=board=2;threadid=599;start=0#5386 date=1062805867]<br />I can't even tell you how many hours I spent practicing and memorizing principle parts when I took greek classes... recording them, listening to them, writing them out, drilling them, etc etc etc. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Reading as much Greek as possible helps more than anything. Learning words in context turns out to be a lot more effective than memorizing lists, though course the lists are important preparation.<br />
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby klewlis » Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:36 pm

[quote author=William Annis link=board=2;threadid=599;start=0#5417 date=1062855730]<br />Reading as much Greek as possible helps more than anything. Learning words in context turns out to be a lot more effective than memorizing lists, though course the lists are important preparation.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yes, this is true. However, it's sometimes tough to even look up some of those forms when they look so different from the lexical form... also, I found that as I studied the lists, I started to see patterns in how the parts were working, and memorization became easier. :)
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:23 am

Ablaut may be a grammatical concept but it is not a well attested and predictable rule in most cases. I was looking for a means by which I could determine that this is that and which is what in regards to the inflection of most verbs; but now it seems that there is no hope for such.... :-\<br /><br />As always, thanks for trying. :)
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby Skylax » Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:44 pm

[quote author=Raya link=board=2;threadid=599;start=0#5380 date=1062798379]<br /> So, for instance, if we take the root [face=SPIonic]klp[/face], we have:<br /><br />e-grade: [face=SPIonic]kle/ptw[/face] (verb: to steal - note how a great many verbs show the e-grade...)<br />o-grade: [face=SPIonic]kloph/[/face] (noun: theft - there are a number nouns representing an object related to the verb in this manner which also show the o-grade)<br /><br />(There is also a 0-grade (zero grade - no vowel, or no [face=SPIonic]e[/face] or [face=SPIonic]o[/face] at any rate), but I can't think of a word from [face=SPIonic]klp[/face] <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Take for exampe the "root" (I'm not sure about English terminology, French "racine" (meaning "root"...) gen- "to be born, to become"<br /><br />zero-grade : present [face=SPIonic]gi/gnomai[/face]<br />e-grade : future [face=SPIonic]genh/somai[/face]<br />o-grade : perfect [face=SPIonic]ge/gona[/face]
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:37 pm

For all this technical brick-a-brack, I haven't seen an actual rule that should allow me to form most verbs seeing only their first principal parts. The grammatical concept, ablaut, is too vagarious; it seems more of an occaisonal observation than a rule. It may as well have not been given a name - in my opinion.
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby klewlis » Mon Sep 08, 2003 1:21 am

*most* verbs follow the regular conjugations that you learn right away. it's only the irregular verbs which really need to be focused on when learning principal parts.
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby annis » Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:22 am

[quote author=Lumen_et_umbra link=board=2;threadid=599;start=0#5523 date=1062977864]<br />For all this technical brick-a-brack, I haven't seen an actual rule that should allow me to form most verbs seeing only their first principal parts.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />No such rule exists for many of the common verbs.<br /><br />
The grammatical concept, ablaut, is too vagarious; it seems more of an occaisonal observation than a rule. It may as well have not been given a name - in my opinion. <br />
<br /><br />It is true that ablaut is an observation rather than a rule. Rules necessarily follow observation, of course, but the point of knowing about ablaut is that it highlights a very common vowel variation in Greek. Once you know about ablaut, you'll have a much better chance of guessing the true stem or meaning of a word you may not have seen before.<br /><br />I just took a look through Morwood's Oxford Grammar of Classical Greek's list of principal parts of irregular verbs. With no great effort (and under the influence of 3 pints of Guiness), I found 6 verbs on the first few pages for which ablaut changes explained the vowel of the perfect stem.<br /><br />Ablaut may not be universally applied to verbs, but those verbs to which it applies are quite common, just as the most fundamental and common English verbs have ablaut (come, came; see, saw; write, wrote; fly, flew; sing, sang).<br /><br />One need not know about ablaut to learn Greek. But knowing about it can make learning Greek easier.
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Re:Pepomfa

Postby Ptolemaios » Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:17 pm

Has it been mentioned already that o-grade is associated with the perfect? E.g. [face=SPIonic]le/loipa, ge/gona, pe/pomfa[/face].<br /><br />Even Sihler (New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin paragraph 125) says that "the conditions and causes of these remote developments should be involved in obscurity".<br /><br />Some knowledge of historical grammar may help, but it only decreases one's surprise at obscure forms. Even with that knowledge one cannot predict the actual Greek forms.<br /><br />Ptolemaios
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