Greek Etymology

[joseph47parker]

I am just starting learing Koine Greek. Currently on chapter 10 of BBG, so I got a long way to go. Anyway, I have a question about etymology....I think. Let me make give this example and then my question will be clear I hope.
In Romans 1:16 the NIV states

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God….


In the TEV it states

I have complete confidence in the gospel; it is God's power

I heard a sermon on this verse that stated the Greek term epascunmai (sorry I couldn't get the greek font to work here) means “ashamedâ€￾ but also carries with it a meaning of being “disappointedâ€￾ and that is why the TEV has translated it as having “compete confidenceâ€￾.

So, I start looking in my handy dandy Lexicon (I’m using Trenchard’s Concise Dicty of NT Greek) and the definition was “ashamedâ€￾ no more. So I look on some software Lexicons and they also ONLY have “ashamedâ€￾ for the definition. (Thayer’s, Louw and Nida, Vine’s expository of NT words, Strong’s)

So where did this translation of “complete confidenceâ€￾ come from. Is this something that I would get from a better lexicon? A NT Greek commentary? Is this an etymology question and if so what book(s) are good for that? Is etymology the same as morphology….IOW….will a good morphology book cover the etymology of greek words?

[Bert]

I am just starting learing Koine Greek. Currently on chapter 10 of BBG, so I got a long way to go. Anyway, I have a question about etymology....I think. Let me make give this example and then my question will be clear I hope.
In Romans 1:16 the NIV states

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God….


In the TEV it states

I have complete confidence in the gospel; it is God's power

I heard a sermon on this verse that stated the Greek term epascunmai (sorry I couldn't get the greek font to work here) means “ashamedâ€￾ but also carries with it a meaning of being “disappointedâ€￾ and that is why the TEV has translated it as having “compete confidenceâ€￾.

So, I start looking in my handy dandy Lexicon (I’m using Trenchard’s Concise Dicty of NT Greek) and the definition was “ashamedâ€￾ no more. So I look on some software Lexicons and they also ONLY have “ashamedâ€￾ for the definition. (Thayer’s, Louw and Nida, Vine’s expository of NT words, Strong’s)

So where did this translation of “complete confidenceâ€￾ come from. Is this something that I would get from a better lexicon? A NT Greek commentary?

The problem with Trenchard's is that it is not meant to be used as a lexicon but as a lexical aid. It lists words in cognate groups to help you see the connection between one and the other. It is a great help with memorizing. I don't have Louw and Nida and I don't have Thayer's anymore. These are lexicons so they are more likely to give a definition in addition to a word that could be used as a translation. I am quite sure that both of them have more than just "ashamed" (don't they?)
I looked it up in BDAG and it defines this word as; "to experience a painful feeling or sense of loss of status because of some particular eventor activity be ashamed " Based on this I would think that being being disappointed is close but maybe not strong enough. αἰσχύνη means; shame done to someone, dishonour, shame for an ill deed.
In Homer αἶσχος is; shame, disgrace, a cause of shame or disgrace. So it seems that this word has not changed much from Homer to the time of the beginning of the New Testament. The translation “complete confidenceâ€￾ is an attempt to bring out the meaning in better English. Whether or not this was successful is for you to decide.

Is this an etymology question

No. Etymology studies the way a word has developed. For instance from (several) base form(s) to its present form. An example would be dynamite comes from the Greek word δύναμις (from this same text.) I recently heard a sermon where the minister said that Rom 1:16 says that the gospel is the dynamite of God. Utter nonsense. He was using the etymology of dynamite and worked backward to explain the word δύναμις. I am sure that the apostle Paul did not have dynamite in mind when he wrote that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. If dynamite was it, what would it do? Blow open the gates of heaven? Or blow us into heaven? (I don't mean this as blasphemy. I'm just a little frustrated with someone using his (lack of ) knowledge of Greek to come up with nonsense like that.)

Is etymology the same as morphology….IOW….will a good morphology book cover the etymology of greek words?

No. Two different animals. Morphology deals with the FORM of words rather than the HISTORY of words. You are now in chapter 10 of BBG.
In it you will learn why the word σάÏ￾ξ is written with a ξ even though the stem is σαÏ￾κ- and the case ending is Sigma. That is morphology.

[joseph47parker]

Thanks Bert,

Your right. On my Louw and Nida it has.."to experience or feel shame or disgrace because of some particular event or activity - 'to be ashamed of.'
I guess I was just expecting to see something about "disappointed" or the like in the definition. So your Lexicons have this as the full definition?

I really appreciate your reply. I am the ONLY person I know that has ANY desire to learn greek.

If you would be so kind as to answer a few more questions. I know there are several commentaries that refer to the Greek in their writings. Do you have any advice on which ones to purchase? I have just bought Hagner's Commentary on Matthew from the Word Biblical Commentary series. Thoughts?

Also, I really don't like transliterated versions. Is this normal?
and how do you get the greek font to work on this site? I have TekniaGreek font on my CPU?

[IreneY]

Just to say that I've cracked up my favourite dictionary and I cannot still find a translation that maes sense to me given the context . The only one that seems to "fit" is "I am not shaming the gospel'.
My dictionary (which none of you will have heard of since it's a Greek-Greek one has only one reference of επαισχÏ￾νομαι used with the meaning of making someone look ugly, deform , ashame and it comes from Nonnos so I couldn't find it anywhere (Nonn D 20,61 for anyone interested).

Frankly I am not entirely happy choosing this translation really but it's the only one I actually like, the only one that makes sense to me.

[Bert]

Thanks Bert,

Your right. On my Louw and Nida it has.."to experience or feel shame or disgrace because of some particular event or activity - 'to be ashamed of.'
I guess I was just expecting to see something about "disappointed" or the like in the definition. So your Lexicons have this as the full definition?

Yes. It then lists a few different uses.

I really appreciate your reply. I am the ONLY person I know that has ANY desire to learn greek.

That makes it hard to stick with it. Textkit can fill this gap quite nicelyv

If you would be so kind as to answer a few more questions. I know there are several commentaries that refer to the Greek in their writings. Do you have any advice on which ones to purchase? I have just bought Hagner's Commentary on Matthew from the Word Biblical Commentary series. Thoughts?
I like Calvin's commentary but I'm sure there are others as well that make reference to the Greek. I don't know enough about them to make a recomendation. I am a member of a Biblical Greek discussion group. You are more likely to get advise there. You could check their archives as well. You can find information about subscribing etc. here: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

Also, I really don't like transliterated versions. Is this normal?

It is to accomodate those who don't know any Greek. Once someone knows some Greek the transliterated Greek is harder to read than real Greek.

and how do you get the greek font to work on this site? I have TekniaGreek font on my CPU?

This site uses unicode. Can you read what I wrote in Greek in my previous post? If so, you have unicode. All you need is a way to write it.
I use a free program from http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/ (Only one of them is free.) You can also use this website http://users.ox.ac.uk/~tayl0010/letters ... etpos2.htm

[Bert]

....My dictionary (......has only one reference of επαισχÏ￾νομαι used with the meaning of making someone look ugly, deform , ashame ...)

Irene, from which time period is that dictionary? I found that meaning in Homer but no where else. Mind you, I don't have that many resources.

[IreneY]

The dictionary covers meanings from Homer to modern Greek which is why I've named it my precious. Nonnus lived around the 4th or 5th century AD if I remember correctly.

Most of the NT examples it has by the way have a middle/passive meaning by the way. Note that I'm talking about έπαισχÏ￾νομαι.

The meanings it has are as follows
1)

with dative I am ashamed /embarassed about sth

with accusative I am ashamed/embarassed of something

with infinitive I am ashamed/embarassed of doing sth or I'm ashamed of having sth done to me

with participle I am ashamed/embarassed of sth I did or am doing

as an absolute I am ashamed/embarassed

2) I deny sth out of shame

3) I make something ugly, deformed, I shame sth

[Bert]

That sounds like a valuable book.
I deny sth out of shame seems to fit the context quite well.

[IreneY]

OK I know I'm probably missing something (wouldn't be the first time and today what with one thing or another I am going back and forth between AG and MG with the occasional English for too long)

However look at the following

14 á¼￾λλησί τε καὶ βαÏ￾βάÏ￾οις, σοφοῖς τε καὶ ἀνοήτοις ὀφειλέτης εἰμί· 15 οὕτω τὸ κατ' á¼￾μὲ Ï€Ï￾όθυμον καὶ ὑμῖν τοῖς á¼￾ν Ρώμῃ εá½￾αγγελίσασθαι. 16 οá½￾ γὰÏ￾ á¼￾παισχύνομαι τὸ εá½￾αγγέλιον τοῦ ΧÏ￾ιστοῦ· δύναμις γὰÏ￾ Θεοῦ á¼￾στιν εἰς σωτηÏ￾ίαν παντὶ Ï„á¿· πιστεύοντι, Ἰουδαίῳ τε Ï€Ï￾ῶτον καὶ á¼￾λληνι. 17 δικαιοσύνη γὰÏ￾ Θεοῦ á¼￾ν αá½￾Ï„á¿· ἀποκαλύπτεται á¼￾κ πίστεως εἰς πίστιν, καθὼς γέγÏ￾απται· á½￾ δὲ δίκαιος á¼￾κ πίστεως ζήσεται

How does I don't deny out shame fits? (nevermind the Greeks; what on Earth are we doing in there? Is it so in all bibles or is it a local thing?) . I mean of course he is not ashamed or denying the gospel out of shame. He's preaching the gospel! Why say something like that when no one told him to do so? See where I'm confused?

joseph47parker my apologies for hijacking your thread but it's above me. I am able to go on wondering for waay too long if I don't have this answered though

[Bert]

Paul just finished saying that he was delayed in coming. He has been scorned because of the gospel many times (see 1Cor 4:13) so it is a distinct possibility that he will face the same treatment from the Roman gentiles as he proclaims the gospel to them. Now he wants to assure the Roman Christians that his delay was not because of shame. At the same time he may be preparing the Roman Christians that this will happen to them as well and encouraging them that they don't have to be ashamed either.
That is my take on it.
Some think that he is just stating the obvious. "I'm not ashamed, I'm preaching it."
I don't think that is likely. To my shame, I've been ashamed of the gospel before even though I have confidence in its truth.
I hope I made sense.

[IreneY]

Ah! Yes, that does make sense! I guess I needed to know more of the overall context. Thanks Bert