COMPARING GREEK LXX WITH HEBREW OT

[AVRAHAM]

Greetings! My name is Avraham. I am fairly new here. I currently know Hebrew. I'd say enough to where I maybe need to look up 2 words at the most per chapter. So I read fairly well. I am currently studying Arabic and NT Greek. I am close to finishing with that. However, Greek is way harder than Hebrew! Like English. My goal is to master it. Along with that the Greek of the Septuagint (I understand it is a little more complex, at least in vocabulary?). I am also soon going to take up Latin(thanks to this website I now have the means!!!), and on top of that, Classical Greek. I also purchase most of my books from Stuttgart, Germany. Like, the leading Bible authority in the world! They have a new English webpage. Check it out! http://www.scholarly-bibles.com/en/ Well, since I know Hebrew, I am fascinated with it's comparison with the septuagint. I understand they both help explain the other. I've read all the postings here, and studied about it elsewhere. I will also point out for refference, I am a former Jew, turned disciple of Yeshua(Jesus, Christian, whatever you want to call it). I am not part of a denomination, however. I do have some strong personal beliefs, yet in my opinions I try to stay open-minded in searching for the truth. My goal here is not religious, but grammatical. What I do with what I learn here I will do on my own later. I won't force my beliefs on anyone Now. I have some questions. I hope they are both fun and challeninging. Here goes:
1. In the Hebrew OT, the word for "slave" is "עֶבֶד"(eved). Now we all hear stories of the Hebrew "slaves" in Egypt. Stories that conjur up images of beating, raping, and just utter terror. However, a rabbi of mine one taught me that it was not so. The Hebrews live almost the best they ever did in their history. Tons of food, clothing, housing, and for the most part, total freedoms. Outside of perhaps worshiping their God, or leaving for vacations to Hawai'i This shocked me at first. But Hebrew is not as specific as English or Greek. Each word could have at least 3 different definitions in English. עֶבֶד also means "servant". In our sense, the fact that I do not own my own business, makes me an עֶבֶד. A slave? Maybe to the system. But that's not colloquial English So. What does it say in the LXX? And what does it mean exactly? Not just literally, but idiomatically, et cetera?

2. Next, the question of the "virgin birth" in Isaiah's prophecy. Let me remind people, I am not implying anything here. I can go either way. I am ASKing for help. Not trying to make a point. Give me a few months for that Well, in Isaiah 7:14, it says: "יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן ×￾ֲדֹנָי הוּ×￾, לָכֶ×￾-- ×”Ö´× Ö¼Öµ×” הָעַלְמָה הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָ×￾ת ש×￾ְמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ ×￾ֵל ×￾וֹת:." It uses "עַלְמָה" (almah). Protestants and Catholics alike(I think Eastern Orthodox too) translate it as "virgin". Jews translate it as "young woman of marrying age"(can never put Hebrew into one word ) The say that if it were virgin "בְּתוּלָה"(b'tulah) would be used instead. Well the root of "בְּתוּלָה" does literally mean virgin. While the root of "עַלְמָה" does mean "the age desirous of marriage". "עַלְמָה" alone can mean "maiden". However it also means virgin, or unmarried woman, id est, virgin. A Russian Orthodox Monk/Priest friend of mine told me that in the Jews translating the LXX from Hebrew to Greek, used the literal Greek word for virgin, and not maiden. Thus clarifying all arguments centuries before the birth of Jesus. Is this true? What is your reading of it in the LXX Greek?

3. Lastly, I ask about the flood story. Many people who maintain the Bible to be nothing but fallacies state that the flood story if preposterous. (I don't care if you are Christian or not. Just at least accept that the Bible is really cool mythology, not lies ) Well, there is new evidence that that there was a huge flood in the region around the Medditerranian and Black Seas. National Geographic even did a few specials on it recently. It is not only in the culture and religions of all the peoples in those areas, but they also have extensive evidence pertaining to it. However, the evidence is not global. This supported suspicions I had before. In Hebrew, when the flood was on the "world", the word used is "×￾ָרֶץ" (eretz), and not what I would think "עֹלָ×￾" (olam) or "תֵּבֵל" (teiveil). "עֹלָ×￾" means "world, universe, eternity". "תֵּבֵל" means "the Earth, the globe, or moist". Whereas the word used, "×￾ָרֶץ" means "earth" but also means "land, country, area, or hard". Now in my knowledge of Hebrew (not saying I'm a leading expert or anything) "×￾ָרֶץ" is more cannoted to a smaller area. As "country" or "region". It is seldom used for "whole planet". "עֹלָ×￾" is popular. So what say you?

I hope these questions are not too hard for any of you. Or too dumb and simple. I again point out that I am on a textual/ gramatical quest here. Not a religous one. So I am not implying anything, and am making every effort not to offend anyone. Thank you all for your time and consideration. Good day!
-Avraham

[modus.irrealis]

Hi,

I'm not sure how helpful I'll be, but you brought up some interesting questions, and I thought I'd make some comments. Just to mention, though, the version of the LXX I consulted is the one found at http://www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr/bible/bible.asp?contents=old_testament/contents.asp&main=OldTes, and I looked up the words in Liddell-Scott-Jones at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform, which isn't the best source, and something more specific to the Koine period would be better.

1. I don't know if you have any particular parts of the OT in mind, but in Exodus 21, the LXX uses παῖς. The main meaning of this word is "child" but it could also mean "servant" or "slave." I'm thinking the choice between these terms says more about English and modern society where they signify two different social/legal/economic roles, and I don't know if ancient society had such a distinction.

2. The Greek's really not going to help here, since it seems to have the same issue as the Hebrew . The word in the LXX is παÏ￾θένος, and my understanding is that this word meant "maiden" but was often equivalent to "virgin," and applied to women who were not young. But this "double" meaning doesn't really surprise me, considering the type of society that existed in the ancient world, where most people would have assumed that an unmarried girl was a virgin, at least if she was a "good" girl. The Latin word virgo which gave us "virgin" had the same issue, and even "maiden" in English does, say in the context of some tale of chivalry. In the end, though, my hunch is that the LXX author did mean "virgin," or at least this would have been the natural way to read it.

3. The LXX uses the word γῆ, which, besides "soil," had both a narrow and wider meaning, but I'm not sure how to tell which was meant here. (In Modern Greek, by the way, the planet is known as Γη, but I couldn't find out how far back that usage goes.)

[Paul]

Hello Avraham,

Very interesting post, thank you.

I am running out the door so I can respond only briefly.

It has lately occurred to me that the writing of the LXX was indeed an opportunity for its authors/translators to clarify the intent of the Hebrew OT.

The Greek word for "virgin" in Isaiah 7:14 is παÏ￾θένος, and it really means "virgin."

Cordially,

Paul

[Chris Weimer]

I currently know Hebrew.

Modern also? Ma nishma?

However, Greek is way harder than Hebrew!

Perhaps because I knew Latin before Greek, and Greek before Hebrew, but I found Hebrew harder than Greek. Or rather, just stranger.

(I understand it is a little more complex, at least in vocabulary?)

It's stranger. Harder...eh, not really. It uses a lot of Semiticisms, though.

I am also soon going to take up Latin(thanks to this website I now have the means!!!), and on top of that, Classical Greek.

A true education! I'm right there with you, amice. Don't forget Coptic and Aramaic, as well as numerous other languages I'm sure you'll enjoy.

Well, since I know Hebrew, I am fascinated with it's comparison with the septuagint.

You're in good company. I've been looking for others interested in the Septuagint and comparing it with Hebrew.

I understand they both help explain the other. I've read all the postings here, and studied about it elsewhere. I will also point out for refference, I am a former Jew, turned disciple of Yeshua(Jesus, Christian, whatever you want to call it). I am not part of a denomination, however. I do have some strong personal beliefs, yet in my opinions I try to stay open-minded in searching for the truth. My goal here is not religious, but grammatical. What I do with what I learn here I will do on my own later. I won't force my beliefs on anyone

Stick with this, and you're a made man. We're opposite: former Christian who rediscovered his Jewish roots (shalom! shalom!).

1. In the Hebrew OT, the word for "slave" is "עֶבֶד"(eved). Now we all hear stories of the Hebrew "slaves" in Egypt. Stories that conjur up images of beating, raping, and just utter terror. However, a rabbi of mine one taught me that it was not so. The Hebrews live almost the best they ever did in their history. Tons of food, clothing, housing, and for the most part, total freedoms. Outside of perhaps worshiping their God, or leaving for vacations to Hawai'i This shocked me at first. But Hebrew is not as specific as English or Greek. Each word could have at least 3 different definitions in English. עֶבֶד also means "servant". In our sense, the fact that I do not own my own business, makes me an עֶבֶד. A slave? Maybe to the system. But that's not colloquial English So. What does it say in the LXX? And what does it mean exactly? Not just literally, but idiomatically, et cetera?

There are several words for "slave" in the Old Testament. For example, Genesis IX.xxvii Canaan is said to be παις, literally meaning "boy" or "child", but often, just like idiomatically in English, meaning "slave". Exodus XII.xliv has οικετης which means "house slave", which better suites our "servant". Pharoah's servants, though, are called θεÏ￾απωντοι in Exodus v.xxi, which implies voluntary service. Sort of like an "attendant" or "minister" in Latin.

An even more boggling question, when are the Hebrews in Egypt called slaves?

Jews translate it as "young woman of marrying age"(can never put Hebrew into one word )

Maiden is one word that fits almah perfectly, in my opinion.

A Russian Orthodox Monk/Priest friend of mine told me that in the Jews translating the LXX from Hebrew to Greek, used the literal Greek word for virgin, and not maiden. Thus clarifying all arguments centuries before the birth of Jesus. Is this true? What is your reading of it in the LXX Greek?

Literally, παÏ￾θενος means virgin, but, especially in the Old Testament, it's not restricted to such a meaning. As I wrote elswhere at another time, Both Genesis 24.13 and 24.43 attest to the Greek παÏ￾θενος as being a translation for Hebrew עלמה.

[Agrippa]

3. Lastly, I ask about the flood story. Many people who maintain the Bible to be nothing but fallacies state that the flood story if preposterous. (I don't care if you are Christian or not. Just at least accept that the Bible is really cool mythology, not lies ) Well, there is new evidence that that there was a huge flood in the region around the Medditerranian and Black Seas. National Geographic even did a few specials on it recently. It is not only in the culture and religions of all the peoples in those areas, but they also have extensive evidence pertaining to it. However, the evidence is not global. This supported suspicions I had before. In Hebrew, when the flood was on the "world", the word used is "×￾ָרֶץ" (eretz), and not what I would think "עֹלָ×￾" (olam) or "תֵּבֵל" (teiveil). "עֹלָ×￾" means "world, universe, eternity". "תֵּבֵל" means "the Earth, the globe, or moist". Whereas the word used, "×￾ָרֶץ" means "earth" but also means "land, country, area, or hard". Now in my knowledge of Hebrew (not saying I'm a leading expert or anything) "×￾ָרֶץ" is more cannoted to a smaller area. As "country" or "region". It is seldom used for "whole planet". "עֹלָ×￾" is popular. So what say you? -Avraham

Hey Avraham, I'm just now starting Classical Hebrew, but Genesis begins with Bre'shith bara' 'elohim 'et hashamaim we'et ha'aretz. The transliteration may be a bit off, but I don't think that implies that haShem created only Israel or something instead of the world, though I see what you're saying.

Also, I learned Latin, Greek, and now doing Hebrew. Latin is easy, Attic Greek is HORRIBLE HORRIBLE PAIN, but Hebrew is easy too.

[AVRAHAM]

Thank you Modus. Great input.

You too Paul. And you sound like, in your opinion, the use of παÏ￾θενοσ, despite other definitions, here is cannoted as virgin. That's what would have been understood by the original writers and readers of the time.

Chris Weimer: Yes I know enough Modern Hebrew to get by. But I'll admit, in all my languages, I READ them. I see the words in my head. So I have a hard time in conversation. One time a girl was flirting with me in Hebrew and I completely fumbled up on my Hebrew. Then realised later the words I didn't get were just basic, simple words. I just wasn't SEEing them in my head. Quite funny actually. But I'm working on it. I have a modern Hebrew grammar from a friend of mine he got from Rabbinical Seminary. I've come close to finishing it. But it's not really all too different than Biblical Hebrew. Other than computers and universities and ipods and such, all the words are actually from biblical Hebrew. And by the way Hacol beseder. I think Hebrew is easy because it is "economic". Every word comes from a 3 letter root. Verb, noun, adjective, past, future, singular, plural. So once you know the grammar, it becaomes easy to learn new words. Such as in Greek (if I'm doing this right) the difference between φαγων and εσθιων. In hebrew it's always achal no matter what. E'echol, or achalti. Anyhow, too complex to describe right now. But I'm sure you get the point. Semiticisms in the LXX? Hmmm.... I think I can handle that. Yes, I'm sure Coptic and Aramaic will be some fun side studies for me. I'll get to them. Where are they called slaves? Hmmmm... I think your on to something. Is my tv not working because I forgot to plug it in? This is another thing to research. I am having a difficulty finding it. Could this just be what we are told? It's like the animals on Noah's ark. Every says there was only 2 of every kind on board. But the story actually says they went on the ark in pairs. And in actuality (of the clean animals), there were 14 of each kind! Which I find interesting. Because recently a scientist said (in Discover magazine) that the Bible's acount of 2 of every animal proves the Bible wrong, as recent evidence of the genome proves there must be at least 14 specimens from the particular animal to create a proper gene pool, or the species cannot survive. Well, there was 14, of the clean animals. Maybe the slave deal was something missed. Must double-check...

Agrippa: Erezt of course has a variety of meanings. I still maintain that in general it is cannoted in reference to a smaller scale section of land. However, I appreciate your input. You have indeed pointed out the very first, and most famous reference to it's use as "Earth" or "planet". Thank you.

Thanks to all of you! You're all great! I hope I can continue to learn here and contribute what I can. Please feel free to ask me anything. I live in the middle of nowhere right now. So counting me, all the people in the county that study these languages would be...ummmm.... one. Take it easy! And thaks to all again!

-Avraham

[Chris Weimer]

Other than computers and universities and ipods and such, all the words are actually from biblical Hebrew.

I always found those words, like university, to be the hardest, probably because they're foreign. It still takes a second or two to recognize ×￾וניברסיטה. But it gets easier all the time.

Agrippa: Erezt of course has a variety of meanings. I still maintain that in general it is cannoted in reference to a smaller scale section of land.

I'm hoping that at least there's evidence for this that's contrary to what Agrippina has shewn.

Chris~

[AVRAHAM]

Very good. "×￾וניברסיטה". Anglicised as most modern non-Biblical words in Hebrew. I agree with Agrippa for his reference. However, I'm just saying in general, the word is used as "land". As far as evidence for my understanding of ×￾ָרֶץ eretz....well, lets see....... well, I am afraid I cannot list them all here. However, according to Strong's, it lists the word being used as "world" 4 times, and just "land" 1543 times. It also lists it used as "earth" 712 times. But I believe, not being capitalized that that is a synonym with "soil"....

[joja]

Hello,

The reason why the woman that
carried the Christ-Child in the womb had to be a virgin
was because, first, it was prophesied in the OT
to be that way,

"A virgin shall conceive"
because God, Who was Christ in the flesh,
could not be associated with the "original sin"
that took place in the Garden of Eden with the Serpent,
WHO WAS AT THAT TIME, AN UPRIGHT BEAST, SUBTLE,
AND COULD TALK, and who "beguiled" Eve.
After that he was cursed and his legs came off, and he
became a crawling serpent...the missing link.

That's why the Holy Ghost Ghost overshadowed Mary
before she was married to Joseph.