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hey!

Postby Ptahhotep » Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:04 am

hi people!<br /><br />i'm a farely new member of the Textkit forums, you probably saw my msgs in the Outside Links of interest ;) now here's some stuff about me...<br /><br />My name is (online of course lol) Ptahhotep and I live in South Africa (Ptahhotep was an overseer/vizier of some phrahaoh of Egypt in the Old Kingdom.)<br /><br />I'm studying Middle Egyptian grammar as well as New Testament Greek (oh, and Modern Greek, but they're really so similar, except in pronunciation, so i thought i may as well learn Classical Greek as well hehe ;)). yes, i'm fascinated in languages, in fact, i hope to study linguistics when i finish high school :) (well i'm actually doing homeschool (it isn't so common here though) because of the crime situation at public schools.) I also like Greek and Roman history<br /><br />How i started learning Greek? well i was amazed by how many words from English are of Greek/Latin origin. (you probably already know this :)) over 50% of our dictionary has words of Romantic origin! fascinating...<br /><br />well that's about it i guess. i hope i can contribute to this place in anyway possible ;)<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]xaírete![/face]
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Re:hey!

Postby Keesa » Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:34 pm

Welcome, Ptahhotep! (How would you pronounce that?) I hope you like it here, and that you learn a lot. I know I have. <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:hey!

Postby Emma_85 » Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:55 pm

Hi Ptahhotep! I see you're home schooled... don't hesitate to post your thoughts on the subject in the home school thread.
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Re:hey!

Postby Ptahhotep » Sat Sep 06, 2003 1:03 pm

It's pronounced as in the standard Spanish vowel system or Modern Greek. Pt- is a consonant cluster and should be pronounced seperately, -a- is like a normal Greek a, the -hh- is a bit of a hard h sound, pronounced somewhat deeper in the throat, the -o- is a normal Greek o, and the -e- is like a normal Greek e. lol i should make this explanation as my signiture, a lot of people seem to be unable to pronounce it! :D :D :D :D<br /><br />By the way, Ptahhotep means "Ptah (the god) is satified".
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Re:hey!

Postby Keesa » Sat Sep 06, 2003 1:16 pm

Neat! and thank you! I've always been charmed by the Egyptian culture, especially their hieroglyphs, although it's the charm of one standing on the outside looking in, since I must admit I know next to nothing about it! :D <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:hey!

Postby greagach » Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:38 pm

[face=SPIonic] kalw=j ton [/face] ! <br /><br /> welcome, you satisfied Ptah! and all the best with your (modern and older) Greek learning.<br /><br /> true, English is so full of Greek words, and you wouldn't notice that until you come to have a closer look to a lot of words and the story behind them, only to find out that about a fifth of the vocabulary of English comes directly from Greek. <br /><br /> this certainly makes things a bit easier, and a lot more interesting.<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]ta/ le/me[/face] !
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Re:hey!

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:46 pm

About the suffix hotep: does that have any association with the meaning 'love'? Also, where may one find a book detailing the grammar of the spoken Egyptian language? I have always wanted to add Egyptian to my repetoire of languages...<br /><br />Post Scriptum:<br /><br />A belated welcoming of sorts to textkit to you! I hope my welcoming of you didn't seem less peremptory than my interest in having my own questions answered... ;)
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Re:hey!

Postby mariek » Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:05 am

<br />Hi Ptahhotep,<br /><br />Welcome to the Textkit forum. You have a very interesting name.<br /><br />Don't forget to take a look at all the books you can download from this site. Click on the Learn Ancient Greek link above to see what's available. I hope you enjoy your stay here.<br /><br />
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Re:hey!

Postby mingshey » Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:42 am

Oy, great!<br />Welcome here!<br />Er, what textbook do you use for egyptian studies?<br />Not Rosetta stone, do you? ;D -- Er, it's an article about the deciphering of rosetta stone I ever heard of the god Ptah, [Cleopatra, ever beloved by Ptah] or somethin' like that. -- well, it was a dull joke, but I'm serously considering learning egyptian too, in the far future. Demotic is what I think I should start with. Or coptic, What' you think?
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Re:hey!

Postby Clemens » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:25 am

As far as I know they use "Egyptian Grammar" by Alan Gardiner for learning Middle Egyptian at university in Germany - and Austria as well, I think.<br /><br />Students, who study "Ägyptologie" at university first learn the Hieroglyphs and then Hieratic and Demotic... :)
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Re:hey!

Postby Ptahhotep » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:36 am

[quote][/quote]Demotic is what I think I should start with. Or coptic, What' you think? <br /><br /><br />Well I personally think that Coptic is easier because it uses a similar alphabet to ours (it's based on Greek and Demotic in fact). Demotic is a very cursive alphabet and quite hard to learn. But if you know Classical Greek I would probably recommend Coptic, but there are very few online grammars on the subject. There are some free lessons availible at http://www.stshenouda.com/coptlang/cptlsn1w.htm but in my humble opinion it's not very thorough and their are little explanations of important grammra rules. Coptic is very easy if you know some Greek, Arabic and Egyptian (it's like Esperanto for Egypt :D)<br /><br />The book i'm using to teach myself Middle Egyptian is by James P. Allen, he wrote an excellent book about the language and culture of the Egyptians. Do a search on amazon.com for "The Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs.<br /><br />Well i hope this helps.<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]Xaírete[/face]
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Re:hey!

Postby Ptahhotep » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:45 am

Oh yeah, Hieroglyphic grammars are plentyful :) And some are still in use after 100 years like the grammars here at Textkit :D
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Re:hey!

Postby vinobrien » Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:32 pm

over 50% of our dictionary has words of Romantic origin! fascinating...<br />
<br /><br />I am oddly reminded of the father in "My BIg Fat Greek Wedding". <br />Father: Give me any word in English and I will show you it comes from Greek<br />Daughter's friend: How about "kimono"?
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Re:hey!

Postby mingshey » Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:19 pm

Old English is beautiful, too. It's in my language-to-learn list. :)<br /><br />And a beautiful recitation of Beowulf(CD) is one of my treasures.<br /><br />Pity for Old English it had lost its life.<br /><br />Surge of the language from advanced culture often destroys the beauty of local tongue. Its coherence and congruency. It's what happened to my mother tongue, too.<br />
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Re:hey!

Postby Emma_85 » Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:35 pm

How can you learn old English ???<br />I mean, what is there to learn? I have no problems what so ever understanding it, what do you mean? Do you mean you want to be able to speak or write it?
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Re:hey!

Postby MDS » Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:07 pm

you know Old English fluently? If so that's pretty impressive!
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Re:hey!

Postby Emma_85 » Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:46 pm

Well, I just never have any trouble understanding it...
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Re:hey!

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:47 pm

I have always subconsciously ascribed quintessential ineloquence and unpalatability to Old English (We are talking about Anglo-Saxon, correct?), and to the likes of it.<br /><br />P.S.<br />MDS, is your adage, or whatever it may be, from Ovid's Metamorphoses? Sorry if this is too off topic...<br /><br />
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Re:hey!

Postby Ptahhotep » Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:10 pm

I assume you're talking about the Old English language Emma? Old English (Anglo-Saxon) is part of the West Germanic family of Indo-European languages spoken somewhere around 800AD to the Middle Ages (I think!). Yes, a lot of the early Germanic languages were beautiful in poems and such (but the only text I know is in the Gothic "Attar Unsar" / Our Father!). It's very difficault to learn Germanic languages though because of their odd vowel pronunciation systems. I'm studying Gothic on-and-off but it's quite easy. Gothic is my favourite old Germanic language :). Well anyway, Old English is a lot different from Modern Standard English (it's possibly like the difference between Modern and Ancient Greek.) There are a lot of similar looking words but they sound very different when spoken. Can you understand "Uton we¯ efstan ealle maegene go¯dra weora, o,nd geornfulle be¯on Godes miltsa, nu¯ we¯ ongeotan magon þon ic......."? ;D<br /><br />Mingshey, I have never read Beowulf but heard it was a great text in Old English literature. Do you know where I can find it online (for the record)?
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Re:hey!

Postby Ptahhotep » Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:26 pm

:) :) :)
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Re:hey!

Postby Emma_85 » Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:32 pm

Uton we nu efstan ealle mægene godra weorca, & geornfulle beon Godes miltsa; nu we ongeotan magon þæt þis nealæcþ worlde forwyrde; forþon ic myngige & manige manna gehwylcne þæt he his agene dæda georne smeage, þæt he her on worlde for Gode rihtlice lifge, & on gesyhþe þæs hehstan Cyninges<br /><br />yes
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Re:hey!

Postby Emma_85 » Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:34 pm

For some strange reason I like apocalyptic texts... the only time I was really interested in a Bible passage, was the apocalyps... ;)
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Re:hey!

Postby Ptahhotep » Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:36 pm

omg! u have the same course lol, sorry. i was a bit behind in the conversation. didn't think you knew it :)
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Re:hey!

Postby Ptahhotep » Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:42 pm

Oh I see now! man! i'm having confusion. there's this course i found of Old Enlgish with some texts in it and just picked one. LOL! hmm... ??? ;D
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Re:hey!

Postby Emma_85 » Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:47 pm

No harm done... I haven't read much else though, just the odd text I find in the library or in a book. Luckly my school librarian is amazing, she knows where every single book is, eventhough I'm sure I must have been like the only person in the last 200 or 300 years to asked for this text. (Didn't ask for this one specificaly, just any old English apocalyptic text.)<br />We did a bit of old German at school (I was really bad at it though... Beowulf typ stuff). Knowing German probably helps me no end, though.
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Re:hey!

Postby klewlis » Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:03 pm

[quote author=Emma_85 link=board=6;threadid=600;start=15#5566 date=1063049542]<br />Uton we nu efstan ealle mægene godra weorca, & geornfulle beon Godes miltsa; nu we ongeotan magon þæt þis nealæcþ worlde forwyrde; forþon ic myngige & manige manna gehwylcne þæt he his agene dæda georne smeage, þæt he her on worlde for Gode rihtlice lifge, & on gesyhþe þæs hehstan Cyninges<br /><br />yes<br />[/quote]<br /><br />k, what does it say?
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Re:hey!

Postby Emma_85 » Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:11 pm

Ok, this is not very exact, but then I don't really go for exact translations, but meaning, lol (i.e. I'm glad if I can understand it):<br /><br />Let's all now strive with the might of good works and be so that God want's to give us mercy (be desirous of god's mercy?). Now we may see that the destruction of this word draws near, so I admonish and warn every man to think diligently about his own death, so that he can live here in the world righly before God and on the sight of the highest King.<br /><br />I can look for an 'official' translation if you want...<br /> <br />
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Re:hey!

Postby Emma_85 » Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:25 pm

Ptahhotep, you seem to know quite a bit about old English... Do you know if there are any sites on the internet like Textkit only for old English? I'm rubbish at searching the internet (I type old + English and google doesn't give me a single site about old English)...<br />It's a pain making a copy of library books >:(. They are so old we're not allowed to photocopy them, but have to make hand copies.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm off to bed now... :)
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Re:hey!

Postby Keesa » Mon Sep 08, 2003 10:44 pm

I have a friend who studied Old English in school...I can't make head or tails of it, which is a shame, since I really like Beowulf. <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:hey!

Postby benissimus » Mon Sep 08, 2003 11:06 pm

This is a great Old English site: Ða Engliscan Gesiðas Home: http://www.kami.demon.co.uk/gesithas/<br /><br />They even have audio readings of poems :D and also a forum. There is no place like textkit though ;)
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re:hey!

Postby Keesa » Mon Sep 08, 2003 11:23 pm

Oh, that's a neat site! I love the articles on runes...<br /><br />Keesa
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Re:hey!

Postby bingley » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:08 am

Some more Old English sites:<br /><br />http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~hanly/oe/503.html<br /><br />http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/hwaet/hwaet06.html<br /><br />http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/library/oe/oe.html<br /><br />http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/oe/old_english.html<br /><br />
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Re:hey!

Postby mingshey » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:19 am

So many posts while I was sleeping! Pity that I live in the different time zone and it's like communicating between Earth and Pluto.<br /><br />I envy you, Emma, and thanks to benissimus for the link.<br /><br />Here's another old english page; enjoy hrodulf hrandeor.<br /> <br />And Beowulf on-line text for Ptahhotep. I had slimmest idea how it sounded so I purchased a CD of Beowulf[unabridged] recited by Trevor Eaton. Listening to it is very pleasing. <br /><br />(Besides, Michael Criton has made a novel interpretation, in a plot that resembles "The Seven Samurai", of Beowulf, "The Eators of the Dead", which was filmed under title "The 13th Warrior".)<br /><br />P.S. thanks to bingley, too. nice sites!<br />Oh, one of them is what I was visiting.
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Re:hey!

Postby Keesa » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:30 am

[quote author=mingshey link=board=6;threadid=600;start=30#5604 date=1063066772]<br />(Besides, Michael Criton has made a novel interpretation, in a plot that resembles "The Seven Samurai", of Beowulf, "The Eators of the Dead", which was filmed under title "The 13th Warrior".)<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />It's late here and I'm sick, but did you say that The 13th Warrior was based on Beowulf, or did I misread that? <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:hey!

Postby mingshey » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:42 am

It's late here and I'm sick, but did you say that The 13th Warrior was based on Beowulf, or did I misread that?
<br /><br />No, you didn't. I mean it. <br />The first part of the movie(and the book) is based on the report of real Ibn Fahdlan on the customs of the Rus tribe. and then look closely what the northmen's leader Bulywif(spells very like Beowulf) does. Sets sail with his warriors to help their far kinsmen in Wendol(Grendel in Beowulf)'s attack. Fights wendol, and follows to its cave and kills its mother, later dies in the fight with "fire-worm"(dragon, or riders with torches in reality).<br /><br />Criton also says it is a re-interpretation of Beowulf in a manner that if the saga was based on real event, the real story might have followed.<br /><br />The idol of Wendols's mother looks like Venus of Willendorf in the movie.
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Re:hey!

Postby Keesa » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:59 am

Neat! I love the way legends influence and inspire other works of art. <br /><br />I have to confess that I've never seen The 13th Warrior; only heard my brother speak of it. It does sound interesting, though...perhaps I shall have to borrow his DVD sometimes! ;) <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:hey!

Postby bingley » Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:23 am

Has anybody read Ibn Faudin (spelling?)? I'd love to know at what point Crichton leaves Ibn Faudin's actual account. Did Ibn Faudin meet the Northmen? What did he actually say about them?
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Re:hey!

Postby mingshey » Tue Sep 09, 2003 7:03 am

Ibn Fahdlan being recruited is the beginning of the fiction.<br /><br />see Risala by Ibn Fahdlan.<br />
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Re:hey!

Postby Emma_85 » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:47 pm

Thanks for all the links! Those sites are interesting :)
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Re:hey!

Postby Ptahhotep » Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:25 pm

Don't forget the very nice Old English Grammar pages<br />http://www.ucalgary.ca/UofC/eduweb/engl401/grammar/index.htm<br /><br />and Gothic too - http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/d ... sson1.html :)<br />
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