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Conditional clauses and tense (Hebrews 8:4)

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Conditional clauses and tense (Hebrews 8:4)

Postby ndansmith » Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:01 pm

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Postby IreneY » Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:56 pm

Last edited by IreneY on Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conditional clauses and tense (Hebrews 8:4)

Postby modus.irrealis » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:48 pm

ndansmith wrote:"This a second-class condition so the condition is false (at least for the sake of argument). So from the author's perspective, Jesus was never on Earth because the verb is past tense."

The funny thing is that this argument would also apply to English, where you have the past (subjunctive) "were" (and even "would" is historically a past form, I believe). For Greek, I'd say that basically in these unreal contexts, the imperfect represents present time and the aorist past time, so I agree with Irene that that English translation is perfectly fine.

(Of course, this just shows that Greek had no tense at all :))
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Postby Paul » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:27 pm

The producers should learn some Greek.

The "past tense" of εἰμί is here used to make unambiguous the verb's progressive (imperfective) aspect. A respected translator of Aristotle makes just this case when he renders the Stagirite's technical formula τί ἦν εἶναι. This does not mean "what it was to be." Rather, the aspectual force of the imperfect ("to continue being, keep on being") in combination with an infinitive of purpose yields, literally, "what continues to be in order to be."

The same argument applies to the ἦν in the protasis of Hebrews 8:4, giving "if he continued being on earth,...".

Thus the argument the producers make from this 2nd class condition misstates the condition. The condition is not that Jesus was never on the earth, it is that Jesus did not continue to be on the earth.

Cordially,

Paul
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Postby Chris Weimer » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:55 am

Please, I beg of you, not to take Brian Fleming and his group representative of atheists everywhere. So many of us disagree wholeheartedly with that movie and so much of what they stand for. :(
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Postby ndansmith » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:18 pm

Chris Weimer wrote:Please, I beg of you, not to take Brian Fleming and his group representative of atheists everywhere. So many of us disagree wholeheartedly with that movie and so much of what they stand for. :(
As a Christian I am shocked that many vocal atheists completely miss the best arguments against the existence of God. Don't worry, I knew these guys were dorks and I don't regard all atheists the same way.
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Re: Conditional clauses and tense (Hebrews 8:4)

Postby joja » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:22 pm

Re: Hebrews 8:9

Hebrews chapter 8:9
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the
land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant,
and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind,
and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they
shall be to me a people:
-----------------------------------------------------------------


"Blood is Life in the New Testament, see, Life is from the Blood of the Lamb,
which means the New Testament, new covenant.
That, God, "After those days will I write My laws upon the fleshly tables
of their heart." See? See? "Not upon the stony tables, and a lamb's blood,
which you had to say, 'Yeah, I--I got the blood over here, now what does
it say do?' But upon the tables of your heart, see, the Spirit covenant
will I make with the people." - William M. Branham
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