me/n - de/ in Iliad 18 - 20
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1889
- Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 2:28 am
- Location: Arthur Ontario Canada
me/n - de/ in Iliad 18 - 20
ὑμῖν μὲν θεοὶ δοῖεν Ὀλύμπια δώματ' ἔχοντες
?κπέ?σαι Π?ιάμοιο πόλιν, ?ὺ δ'οἴκαδ' ἱκέσθαι·
παῖδα δ'?μοὶ λῦσαί τε φίλην, τά τ' ἄποινα δέχεσθαι
I don't know if the me/n - de/ pair is; (1) On the one hand may they grant to you the city of Priam to sack, on the other hand may you arrive home safely, or; (2) On the one hand may THEY grant TO YOU the city to sack and to arrive home safely and YOU return TO ME my daughter . .
The one possibility leaves the first DE/ clause without a finite verb which the second possibility solved by including it with the verb DOI=EN but then the second DE/ clause is left without a finite verb.
Pharr takes choice (2) and he says that the two infinitives in the second DE/ clause are used as imperatives. Does that mean that the sentence does not need a finite verb because the infinitives take its place?
It would seem natural (how would I know though) to take the following de/ to belong to me/n. If the intend was to take the second de/, the ambiguity could be avoided by replacing the first one with te.
?κπέ?σαι Π?ιάμοιο πόλιν, ?ὺ δ'οἴκαδ' ἱκέσθαι·
παῖδα δ'?μοὶ λῦσαί τε φίλην, τά τ' ἄποινα δέχεσθαι
I don't know if the me/n - de/ pair is; (1) On the one hand may they grant to you the city of Priam to sack, on the other hand may you arrive home safely, or; (2) On the one hand may THEY grant TO YOU the city to sack and to arrive home safely and YOU return TO ME my daughter . .
The one possibility leaves the first DE/ clause without a finite verb which the second possibility solved by including it with the verb DOI=EN but then the second DE/ clause is left without a finite verb.
Pharr takes choice (2) and he says that the two infinitives in the second DE/ clause are used as imperatives. Does that mean that the sentence does not need a finite verb because the infinitives take its place?
It would seem natural (how would I know though) to take the following de/ to belong to me/n. If the intend was to take the second de/, the ambiguity could be avoided by replacing the first one with te.
- IreneY
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 800
- Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:27 am
- Location: U.S.A (not American though)
- Contact:
-
- Textkit Fan
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 5:19 pm
- Location: Mijdrecht
- Contact:
I went for the imperative option: the gods may grant the Achaeans to sack a city, but it seems strange to me to say 'may the gods grant you to free my daughter'. The Achaeans are free to decide for themselves to do that, I would think.
I translated it as 'may the gods grant you to sack the city (...), but free my daughter and accept these ransoms'.
I really didn't think too much about de/ though.
I translated it as 'may the gods grant you to sack the city (...), but free my daughter and accept these ransoms'.
I really didn't think too much about de/ though.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
I'm inclined to go with the pair ὑμῖν μέν... ?ὺ δ’.
However, some editors read λύυσαιτε for λῦσαί τε. This leads to a pair of clauses with optatives, and the resulting parallelism might point more at your option (2).
However, some editors read λύυσαιτε for λῦσαί τε. This leads to a pair of clauses with optatives, and the resulting parallelism might point more at your option (2).
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
Ahh. While μέν often does follow words to which attention seems to be directed, it and δέ may refer rather to the entire clauses in which they appear (Smyth 2915).Bert wrote:With δοῖεν coming after me/n I would be looking for another verb in the second clause.
Yes, but.Pharr says that the two infinitives in the second DE/ clause are used as imperatives. Does that mean that the sentence does not need a finite verb because the infinitives take its place?
I'd say that it's often tough to make a firm distinction between clause and sentence in Homer. In comparing texts I find editors often differ among themselves on whether to us a comma, a period or a raised-dot. λῦσαι might just as well be taken to complement δοῖεν, too. Well, maybe that's a stretch, but I think it's not completely indefensible.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
- IreneY
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 800
- Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:27 am
- Location: U.S.A (not American though)
- Contact:
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 708
- Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:47 pm
- Location: Maryland
- Contact:
Interesting.
I've always read this passage according to Bert's 2nd choice. But my reason for this reading is not based chiefly on syntax or morphology. Rather, I detect a meaningful contrast in the analogy gods:heros::heros:"regular men". So it is quite natural for me to locate the μέν / δέ contrast along the lines of "as the gods give you, may you give me."
I construe the first δέ in ?ὺ δ'οἴκαδ' ἱκέσθαι· as merely continuative.
-Paul
I've always read this passage according to Bert's 2nd choice. But my reason for this reading is not based chiefly on syntax or morphology. Rather, I detect a meaningful contrast in the analogy gods:heros::heros:"regular men". So it is quite natural for me to locate the μέν / δέ contrast along the lines of "as the gods give you, may you give me."
I construe the first δέ in ?ὺ δ'οἴκαδ' ἱκέσθαι· as merely continuative.
-Paul
-
- Textkit Fan
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:54 pm
- Location: Kansas City, Missouri, USA
Could it even be a simpler contrast, as if Chryses is implying "I really hope you get what you want (μέν) and that I get what I want (δέ)?"Paul wrote:I detect a meaningful contrast in the analogy gods:heros::heros:"regular men". So it is quite natural for me to locate the μέν / δέ contrast along the lines of "as the gods give you, may you give me."
Chris
Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 708
- Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:47 pm
- Location: Maryland
- Contact: