Religion or not

[Keesa]

On the faint hope that a flame war isn't a flame war if you call it a debate, could we please move the discussion in "I am worried for you people" down here to the Academy? It really doesn't belong in the open forum. And remember that discussing your opinions nicely makes more of an impression on your hearers (or, in this case, readers) than angry comments. <br /><br />Keesa

[annis]

Or, I beg you all, let the debate die.<br /><br />I've been using the internet since before some of the people participating in this forum were born! And people were debating religions (and non-relgion) with invective and even occasional reason then, and people are still at it now.<br /><br />There have got to be 100s of other web sites with BBSs available for yet another rehash of all sides of this debate. From USENET in the old days, through mailing lists, irc chats and now web based fora, I have not once seen anything useful come out of online theism/atheism debates. Of course, Textkit attracts a smarter class of participant but I'm not sure results will be worth the energy expended.<br /><br />Proselytizing - from all views! - should be saved for face to face interactions.<br /><br />Of course religion is going to be a topic here, given the huge role of Greek and Latin in the spread of Christianity. I invite other non-Christians to join me in staying silent on those topics, unless we have some grammatical or philological point to add. There's more than enough here to keep us all busy without haranguing each other with arguments that have been going on for 2500+ years.<br /><br />Wm - speaking as himself, not a moderator

[mingshey]

Okay I'll join you and zip up my lips(or tie the typing fingers) on inflammable topics like religion from now on. For nobody gets persuaded by the opponent with this kind of topics and the dabate goes endlessly and end up--if ever-- with people hating each other.<br />

[benissimus]

I am usually very careful to avoid discussing the specific facets of a religion, for they are quite undebatable, as well as the righteousness of religion at all. I am always going to protest intolerance or preaching where it doesn't belong, though.

[Emma_85]

I always find it really interesting to debate religion, but I agree it normally leads nowhere. One time it ended with someone telling me I’d go to hell, and me replying that as I don't believe in hell I couldn't care less... <br /><br />But I would not say that such discussions are always a useless waste of time. I have not really had that many discussions on religion in forums before, only 2 or 3. So maybe that is why I’m not quite as tired of them as you all seem to be. <br /><br />I have learned so much from what other people think about religion. As I don't have any friends who believe in god, I’m never really confronted with Christians and their beliefs, so talking about all that stuff on the internet has helped me to understand them a bit better, even though no one has of course been able to convert me to Christianity. And my Muslim friends don't think there is any point in debating religion. But knowing what some people believe and why, is some thing quite important I think.<br />But there are quite often people who turn such a conversation into a mindless argument, so that no one can learn anything about the other.<br />

[benissimus]

I agree with that very much, Emma. I love to debate, but when people start being illogical, it becomes pointless. The only way I have found around this is to save whatever I have to say for people who can handle the heat of argument and not just block me out.

[klewlis]

[quote author=benissimus link=board=13;threadid=541;start=0#4885 date=1061851350]<br />I agree with that very much, Emma. I love to debate, but when people start being illogical, it becomes pointless. The only way I have found around this is to save whatever I have to say for people who can handle the heat of argument and not just block me out.<br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br /><br />It's definitely invaluable to choose your battles carefully... I thrive on debate and especially love debating religion (since I have a BA in Theology ;) but it's difficult to find people who are both rational and honest in discussions of this type... and if you get stuck in a debate with a difficult person, it can be very draining and wasteful.<br /><br />I agree that we have enough on our plates at this site and don't need to venture into this area... it's a bottomless can of worms and I personally would end up spending all my time doing that instead of learning languages ;)<br /><br />At the same time, it will inevitably pop up here and there due to the nature of our studies....

[Nihil]

At times debating religion can be interesting, but most religious debates break down into emotional tirades against the opposing view, threats, and ad hominem attacks.<br /><br />When done correctly, religious debate provides good mental exercise and perhaps something new to consider, but it rarely provides a revelation of an ultra-inflential truth. On the occasions I partake in it, I do so only for entertainment, for I also enjoy a good debate. Although, sadly it falls often into irrationality, and the entertainment value of it approches nil in those cases, so then I just end it. For the theists, their beliefs are important to them and permeate their world view; they often tend to be emotionally connected to their beliefs as well -- a fact that is immediately apparent to anyone who has debated religious views.<br /><br />In my experience, it has often been...well...futile. :-\ I hardly do it anymore.

[Emma_85]

lol, if a few more people in this post say that they love to debate religion properly, but hate it when things start getting irrational... then we'll have enough people to start a debate!

[annis]

[quote author=Emma_85 link=board=13;threadid=541;start=0#5136 date=1062352583]<br />lol, if a few more people in this post say that they love to debate religion properly, but hate it when things start getting irrational... then we'll have enough people to start a debate! <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yikes.<br /><br />I would recommend a refressher on logical and rhetorical errors for those eager to debate: http://www.co-prosperity.org/~annis/arguing.html.

[klewlis]

At times debating religion can be interesting, but most religious debates break down into emotional tirades against the opposing view, threats, and ad hominem attacks.<br /><br />I wouldn't say most... some, depending on the participants.<br /><br />For the theists, their beliefs are important to them and permeate their world view; they often tend to be emotionally connected to their beliefs as well -- a fact that is immediately apparent to anyone who has debated religious views.<br /><br />This is true of all people, theists or not. Non-theism permeates a worldview just as strongly as theism does and is just as emotionally connected... though that's not always so apparent because it also permeates the surrounding culture (in western culture, anyway).<br />

[Nihil]

Well, I'm not looking to start a long, distracting debate, but just clarify myself. The last post was written in haste. <br /><br />I wouldn't say most... some, depending on the participants.<br /><br />I was speaking more of online debating as William was. However, even some formal debates can't completely rise above such attacks, a notable one being Cooke-Aijaz (2002).<br /><br />This is true of all people, theists or not. Non-theism permeates a worldview just as strongly as theism does and is just as emotionally connected... though that's not always so apparent because it also permeates the surrounding culture (in western culture, anyway).<br /><br /><br />True overall. However, what I meant was theism (in most cases) is accompanied with a set of preconceived values one is supposed to follow, usually the religion or teachings. These values many times form the foundation of the worldview. Of course, I recognize there is the theistic alternative of deism, in which you can believe in a deity independent of a religion.<br /><br />Non-theism becomes little more slippery since someone without religion or a god-belief can take on arbitrary values. Really then it's not their lack of a belief in deity that forms their worldview, but rather whatever philosophy they adopt (e.g., Secular Humanism) or form on their own.<br /><br />Non-theism is simply a position on the existence and nature of deities that isn't theism. In my experience, whether someone is connected emotionally to that position hinges mainly on their reasons for disbelief. Some don't believe because they feel there's not enough reason to do so. If that is the case, they tend not to be emotionally connected to their position. Other non-theists may not believe in a deity or deities because their children died or something else tragic happened. That person may be emotionally connected to the position due to the tragic nature of the event that caused disbelief. But as said above, that's my opinion based on experiences I've had and the people with whom I've came in contact.<br /><br />In the case of theism, many theists have been raised on the beliefs of theism, and it's been a part of their lives for a long time. Anything that has been part of one's life for a long time usually causes one to feel a sort of attachment to it. As I said before, theists merely tend to be emotionally connected, so I know it's not universally true. There are some theistic, but non-religious people in the world.

[Emma_85]

It is my personal experience that theists are sometimes very attached to their beliefs, so much that I would call them fanatic. I suppose non-theists could be fanatics, if it is as you said, they lost some one they loved or similar. But that is not normally the case...<br /><br />I also think that if you don't bind yourself to any religion you can still become emotionally attached to the values you’ve choose for yourself, but that even if this is the case, you are still more flexible and it doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll start attacking people, when they say they believe in god, as that is different from if they had said that they are think the death penalty is good. <br /><br />Most theists I know don't believe in anything except that there might be a life after death, but they nearly all reject the Christian religion/ Islam as rubbish. They don't loose their head in an argument though, it's the people who really believe in Jesus, god and prophets that get really angry, when you tell them you don't share their beliefs, even if it was just a simple statement >:(. They have a totally different worldview, one that I don't quite understand, whereas people who just mildly believe there be something else, are much more open and similar to most atheists in that way.<br /><br />I’m a really bad writer, hope you can work out what I’m trying to say anyway... :-\<br />

[benissimus]

Don't forget that almost any generalized statement you make is bound to have many exceptions.

[Emma_85]

well, yes, of course. i do know that, which is why i used the words most and sometimes

[Nihil]

Very true, Benissimus, which is one of the reasons when I have the time to discuss religion, I attempt to choose carefully my words. It has always been a good idea to avoid universial categorizations, except for self-evident ones such as "All theists believe in at least one deity." <br /><br />As for Emma_85, I can relate to much of what you said. Sometimes some of the more "fanatical" ones become quite vexed if you say you're not of their beliefs or are an atheist. Granted, most aren't fanatical -- a very good thing! When I used to argue religion often, many times it turned into fire and brimstone condemnations or came to an end on an "I'll pray for you" note. I attribute that to the fact I live in a very religious part of my town where most people are devout Christians, particularly of the Roman Catholic and Lutheran varity of Christianity. Both the condemnation of one to hell and contemptuous "I'll pray for you" are, of course, not very tactful in a mature discussion.<br /><br />However, I don't enjoy debating religion as much as I used to enjoy it, and as I said previously, hardly partake in it anymore -- not because of bad experiences in the past, but because not much comes out of it for me anymore, and it is usually futile.

[Emma_85]

Everything I say is of course based on what I know. <br />I don't really know many die hard Christians, and none of my friends are, but one of my close friends best mate is quite fanatic. Well the thing is he is no longer her best mate... <br />He knew of course that she didn't believe in god, but just a few days ago, she was feeling quite depressed and so she phoned him to tell him about her problems. He said that she should find comfort in god, at which she replied, she would really like comfort, but she can't get it from someone she doesn't believe it. He just flipped out at that.<br />I think it's really sad, and just don't see how such behaviour has anything to do with his religion really... it doesn't say anywhere in the bible to quit being friends with atheists you've been friends with for ages. That is what I meant, when I said, that I don't understand some people view of the world. He used to be a really nice guy, before he started going to church...<br /><br />Something like this does of course change the way I think about Christians and religion, just as other events or things I’ve read lead me to think in a certain way about things.

[klewlis]

It's somewhat disconcerting to hear about your various experiences with unreasonable theists (especially Christians, since I am one). It's disconcerting because while I do know a number of Christians who fit your descriptions, I know many, many more who are not at all like that (myself included). Perhaps it is simply the circles in which I run, which tend to be more educated and experienced. <br /><br />(However, don't mistake that for a lack of commitment or depth in our faith... :)

[Nihil]

Most of the Christians where I live don't have much formal education in their religion other than attending church and perhaps receving their schooling at a Christian school. I believe the unreasonable nature of the discussions I have come from the fact that tolerance isn't practiced much here. I'm in what some call "the mini Bible belt of Joliet." <br /><br />I know not all Christians are like that and don't believe most are. I merely know that most of the Christians whom I've met weren't very amicable toward me at the end of discussions of religious beliefs. They're good people otherwise. Some of the more levelheaded ones I know are students of philosophy, which probably explains it. Philosophy usually attracts calmer debaters.

[benissimus]

I have a friend whose college Comparative Religion class was less than "calm". Apparently, this class consisted of people arguing how silly non-Christian religions were. What is really frustrating about this is that almost anywhere you go, you are outnumbered, and you often cannot speak out without being alienated or even at times threatened.

[klewlis]

[quote author=benissimus link=board=13;threadid=541;start=15#5187 date=1062483071]<br />What is really frustrating about this is that almost anywhere you go, you are outnumbered, and you often cannot speak out without being alienated or even at times threatened.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Really? do you live in the bible belt? Here in canada it's quite the opposite... while most people claim some sort of belief in a God and/or have some sort of attachment to some church, the vast majority are not practicing and don't really care too much (it's the canadian way ;). So I find that religious people are almost always the minority.

[benissimus]

I have lived in the "Bible Belt" but for most of my life I have lived in California. <br /><br />When I lived in Oklahoma, there were some very fanatical people. One woman I knew wouldn't listen to any music other than gospel, and wouldn't let her daughter either. All the kids in town went to a youth group where one of the adult councilors regularly had conniptions and spoke in tongues. I also told one of my friends that I believed in God but not in the stories of the Bible, and I got slapped across the face!<br /><br />Here in California, it is not so drastic. Many people do seem to be easily offended when you have contradicting beliefs wherever you are, and here is no exception. In public situations, like at school, I have often seen people squelched or even mildly attacked when criticizing some aspect of Christianity or deism, but I have also witnessed people mocking other faiths even within classrooms without reprimand.<br /><br />None of this is to say anything ill towards religion, but the society many of us live in is far from an open podium to state your beliefs freely.

[klewlis]

must just be our general apathy towards life ;)

[Episcopus]

Nostradamus predicted that the Roman Catholic Church would not last long hence; there will be but a couple Popes. That means I and some one else. ;D

[Emma_85]

The more I hear and read of America, the less I want to go there... (at least nowhere rural, nowhere in the Bible belt, and definitely not to Saltlake city). NY might be all right...<br />Sounds absolutely dreadful! <br /><br />I also told one of my friends that I believed in God but not in the stories of the Bible, and I got slapped across the face!<br /><br />Now that is terrible! How can people be so intolerant! I wouldn't even have understood it if you had told him you didn't believe in god, but ... I would never have thought some one would do that just because you didn't believe the stories! I mean... :-\

[klewlis]

[quote author=Emma_85 link=board=13;threadid=541;start=15#5252 date=1062599451]<br />The more I hear and read of America, the less I want to go there... (at least nowhere rural, nowhere in the Bible belt, and definitely not to Saltlake city). NY might be all right...<br />Sounds absolutely dreadful! <br />[/quote]<br /><br />It's really not that bad--you're just hearing about a particularly difficult topic. The US is definitely worth visiting, if for no other reason than to see the grand canyon, mt rushmore, cliff dwellings, etc. (I haven't seen them all myself but really really really want to!) Oh, and San Francisco is a blast... you can go surfing and see the golden gate bridge and visit Alcatraz. There's also Niagara Falls in New York, which of course borders Canada so then you can hop on up and see some of *our* sights (though I'm biased to the west... the Canadian Rockies can't be beat! ;) My family took a roadtrip down through the western states last year--without me :( -- and they said everyone they met was friendly and helpful and hospitable.<br /><br />

[Emma_85]

San Francisco?!?<br />No, I really don't think so. Some Canadian friends, who also live here in Germany, went there in their last holidays. They said they actually saw dead people in the street (beggars, who had died!), and that mad people were just running about in the streets, because the government had closed all the mental asylums due to the budget situation. It was terrible they said, and I certainly have no wish to visit a place like that. Of course there are poor people here, but when people in the UK or Germany say they are poor, they in fact live lives comparable to any American working class people. <br />I might be tempted to see the wide open landscape or natural wonders America and Canada have to offer, though I doubt I'll ever visit America in the near future. My next trip will be to Rome with my History class, and before I spend my money on a trip to America, well... the thing is there are so many other places I would like to visit and most of them are much cheaper than a transatlantic flight.<br />I've never been to Barcelona, Prague, Amsterdam, Stockholm, Moscow....

[Episcopus]

I agree and have no desire to go to America. On television it is glorified (the lovely sunny clean white suburbs). I hate the way in which little girls want to live in America. <br />For me it is corrupt and nasty although I know every country is not perfect the worst most immoral things come from those white guys who came to that land :'(<br /><br />Yes in the U.K Elections are not fixed, black persons are given benefits equal to those of a white unemployed person. <br />But I hate Tony Blair and the Welsh Assembly (a stupid feeble attempt at a "wales government") which spent £50 million on a new building for themselves!! <br /><br />Yes religion debates do indeed suck. I just end up insulting people in the end!

[MDS]

Episcopus:<br />Yes religion debates do indeed suck. I just end up insulting people in the end!<br /><br /><br />Or governments, don't get me started on Canadian politics. They would give the Welsh a run for their money in terms of money wasted....

[Hamilton]

Hello,<br /><br />The more fruitful topic, rather than the excessively general topic "religion" is to distinguish between philosophy and theology. The reason that you find few people unwilling to engage in reasoned discussion is the poor intellectual underpinning that most have for their faith -- faith and reason together.<br /><br />If you want to have an interesting read, do a search on the Pope's 1998 Encyclical Fides et Ratio and read his discussion of Christian Philosophy. Particularly, his assertion that "without Reason, Faith whithers".<br /><br />It is quite illuminating.

[bingley]

Hello, Hamilton.<br /><br />Where did you get your avatar? Is it really Marcus Aurelius? It seems improbable.

[Hamilton]

Hi,<br /><br />No its certainly not Marcus Aurelius. No matter how many times I read his Meditations. It is a link to a Greek Orthodox icon that I found by bouncing around to links here at TextKit.<br /><br />I would much rather upload an avatar (I have a million of them), but, alas, can't figure out how to do it.<br /><br />Incidentally, I disagree with those who think that you can't have an intelligent, level headed, theism v atheism debate. On this forum, of all places, I think that its quite possible.<br /><br />As an added bonus, its an excellent opportunity to review Ancient and Medieval Greek and Latin philosophical works.

[annis]

[quote author=Hamilton link=board=13;threadid=541;start=30#6308 date=1064031554]<br />Incidentally, I disagree with those who think that you can't have an intelligent, level headed, theism v atheism debate. On this forum, of all places, I think that its quite possible.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />On this forum of all places, an intelligent, level headed theism vs. atheism debate is doubtless possible. At the jaded age of 34, however, I doubt very much indeed that such a debate serves any purpose in this particular forum. Not once have I heard of someone being converted on the basis of apologetics. All conversions I know of into our out of a particular faith have started within the neophyte himself. Apologetics comes later, solidifying the conversion.<br /><br />Naturally there are all sorts of matters of interest to classicists relating directly to religion (at least Judaism, Christianity and Islam). I love investigating the way, neoplatonism, say, played into the debate between Nicene Trinitarianism and Arianism. My library attests to this interest. But I shall be very disappointed indeed - and this is my big fear - if people on Textkit forums start waving about Pascal's Wager or another tedious catalog of biblical inconsistencies.<br />

[Hamilton]

The philosophic underpinnings of the theism v atheism debate are what interest me. While I can't speak for fellow Christians, the zeal to convert can become obsessive and counterproductive if pursued with an implicit theodicy that states that all are damned who do not explicitly believe.<br /><br />If you wish an interesting read, flip to Amazon.com, do a search on Frederick Copleston, SJ's 9 volume History of Philosophy and read the back cover description of the book.

[chris]

I am disappointed and discouraged to hear of the experiences some have had with Christians and religious people. It is a horrible thought in my mind that the ones who should try by their actions to exemplify their beliefs do the very opposite. As a Christian myself I am convinced that the teachings of Christ are absolute truth and not merely beliefs,but I also try to remain open minded in any form of debate. St. Paul writing on this topic said that the servant of god must not strive but be gentle and patient.

With this in mind, one must be careful to not judge a religion on the basis of it's adherants. Some Christians honestly fail to live up to their standards while some call themselves Christians and are not genuinly so.
None however should force their beliefs on anyone. St.Augustine taught that Christians should preach the gospel using words only if necessary.
In other words he said that actions speak louder than words. Hopefully more will follow this advice in order that religious debates may become more fruitful to both sides.

[Hamilton]

Good points.

Many Christians forget that the conversion of an individual is not the mere result of human efforts, or arguments, no matter how learned. Rather it is God's gift of grace. A Christian's obligation is to properly live out their beliefs in daily life, practice the virtues, and intelligently debate(if the situation presents itself) with secular philosophies if called to.

That said, I agree with Pope John Paul II, when he ways (in the Encyclical Fides et Ratio) that quoting scripture to a non-believer is not productive; you must be prepared to articulate and defend a Christian philosophy against other philosophies.

[Kalailan]

i see no difference in the pair so closely matched here. religion and secularity. all people are "religious" in some way, as everyone of us believes.
we believe in different things. some of us believe that if one wouldn't brush one's teeth every morning and evening one's teeth would be harmed, some of us believe that one must pray every morning and evening.
i take that most of you will understand where i'm getting to without further explenation. therefore i shall continue.

i have the same sorts of debates/arguments about school.
arguing about the existence of god is a lot like arguing of the necessity of school. in both cases peoples opinion is nearly always very strong.

and about christianity:
i never have had a debate with a proper christian. i am very curious about it as i do not understand how one can live an entire life knowing that we are born in sin and that the heart of man is bad. and i say this with respect to the religion. i just don't understand it.

[Emma_85]

I don't know any Christian, who believes that to be true. I'm not sure if Augustinus was the first to suggest this (that all humans are bad, because of the sin of eating the apple of wisdom), but there are other theories in Christian church, too, it's mainly the Protestants that believe this, as Luther went back to Augustinus.
The Protestant view is indeed very bleak, because you can only hope for slavation, it's not certain, where as a good Catholic knows he will go to heaven (well, hope you know what I mean here). Also Catholics can just say they are sorry like and their sins are forgiven.
I don't know too many Christians, but none of them actually believe the Bible and when you debate religion with them, even the ones who at first said they were like the most Christian Christian you would ever be able to find, in the end said that all they really believed in was that there was some sort of God (whatever that may be) and that there is some sort of afterlife - and that's it. No one I know believes any more than that, whether they are Christian or Muslim (a debate with the bishop of Speyer may be interesting, but I doubt he'd want to speak to me ).

[Kasper]

I disagree with kalailan, not everybody has a religion. To believe in something, whether it is brushing your teeth, equality of men, freedom or whatever, does not make it a religion. A religion is a belief in some metaphyscial being, not in a principal or a right. I have been born and raised a protestant christian, although I no longer consider myself one. I belief christianity, much as most modern religions, are an attempt to systematize, or rationalize if you will, our sense of morality. (Although most religions will have started of simply trying to give some order to the maddening world around.) The problem is of course that putting morality into a set of rules causes many problems, hence the many different religions and branches within those religions.
Although I have no desire to defend the christian faith, as it so immensly varied and there are parts of it I utterly resent, I will say that I do indeed believe in the christian God and in Jezus. I do believe in an afterlife in heaven because of Gods forgiveness and love. I do not believe that just saying you're sorry for a sin makes up for it. However, you need not be sorry, because since Jezus' resurrection you will go to heaven anyway. So why do good, if it's not gonna get you anything that doing bad won't get you? I suppose that's morality.

[Emma_85]

I don't think that's exactly what Kalailan meant. I think he was just trying to say that what we see we believe to be true, that what we see is in fact what reality is really like, which is of course not true. So we all believe something false. Or am I wrong Kalailan? Do we all pray to the toothbrush as our God and have wars about which colour toothbrushes should be?