Textkit Logo

U)PE/R

Are you reading Homeric Greek or studying Homeric Greek with Pharr's Homeric Greek - A Book For Beginners? Here's where you can meet other Homeric Greek learners. Use this board for all things Homeric Greek.
Post a reply

U)PE/R

Postby Bert » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:34 pm

In cunlliffe's lexicon, in the entry [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face] it says [in form comp. fr. [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face]]
Does this really mean that the one is (or was) a comparative form of the other?
Bert
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 2:28 am
Location: Arthur Ontario Canada
Top

Postby Paul » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:10 am

Hi Bert,

Nice observation; and an interesting question.

Apparently [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face] and [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face] are related.

In Watkins' "The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots", 'upo' contains these entries:

7. Basic form *upo. HYPO-, from Greek hupo, under.
8. Suffixed variant form *ups-o-. HYPSO-, from Greek hupsos, height, top.

Note: 7 says 'under', 8 says 'height, top'.

Now the [face=SPIonic]u(/y[/face] in [face=SPIonic]u(/yoj[/face] is also seen in [face=SPIonic]u(/yi[/face], 'on high'; cf. [face=SPIonic]u(yibreme/thj[/face]. Chantraine conjectures that its final iota may be a locative suffix.
Removing it and what Chantraine calls the the 'obscure sigma morpheme', we are left with [face=SPIonic]u(/p[/face]. He calls this the root of both [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face] and [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face].

I'm not sure I understand quite how one gets 'under' from a root meaning 'on high, above'. Perhaps the latter always calls to mind the former, as in 'under high heaven'....

Evidently, English 'up' is cognate with [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face].

Cordially,

Paul
User avatar
Paul
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:47 pm
Location: New York
Top

Postby Kasper » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:41 am

Paul wrote:I'm not sure I understand quite how one gets 'under' from a root meaning 'on high, above'. Perhaps the latter always calls to mind the former, as in 'under high heaven'....



Similarly, but in latin, the word "altus, -a, - um" generally relates to something vertical. Eg. "altus mons" means a high mountain, and "altum flumen" a deep river.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:01 am
Location: Melbourne
Top

Postby Paul » Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:51 pm

Kasper wrote:Similarly, but in latin, the word "altus, -a, - um" generally relates to something vertical. Eg. "altus mons" means a high mountain, and "altum flumen" a deep river.


That's certainly interesting. It sounds like 'altus' has something to do with vertical extension.

But do Latin 'sub' and 'super' have a common ancestor?

Cordially,

Paul
User avatar
Paul
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:47 pm
Location: New York
Top

Postby Bert » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 pm

Paul wrote:

Evidently, English 'up' is cognate with [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face].


If it's all the same to you, I'll call 'up' a cognate with [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r [/face] :)
Bert
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 2:28 am
Location: Arthur Ontario Canada
Top

Postby Kasper » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:13 pm

Paul wrote:
But do Latin 'sub' and 'super' have a common ancestor?



I'm just guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if sub, super, u(po\ and u(pe\r all have 1 and the same common ancestor.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:01 am
Location: Melbourne
Top

Postby hyptia » Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:37 am

If they do, it predates Proto-IE; it seems up, sub, and [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face] are from the P.I.E. root upo whereas over, super, and [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face] are from the root uper.

Nonetheless, the roots themselves are quite similar, and P.I.E. has other examples of similar words having related meanings. :)
phpbb
User avatar
hyptia
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 1:35 am
Location: A)rizw=na
Top

Postby Paul » Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:13 pm

Hi,

This is a bit off-topic, but can any of our native French speakers shed some etymological light on the pair dessous/dessus? Their meaning and appearance seem analogous to [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face] and [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face].

I mean that they look alike but commonly have opposite meanings.

Thanks.

Cordially,

Paul
User avatar
Paul
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:47 pm
Location: New York
Top

Postby Thucydides » Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:47 pm

Sometimes I think we out to have a philology subforum or similar.
phpbb
User avatar
Thucydides
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:46 pm
Location: Christ Church Oxford
Top

Postby annis » Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:34 pm

Thucydides wrote:Sometimes I think we out to have a philology subforum or similar.


The very same thought has occurred to me.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Top

Postby Thucydides » Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:19 pm

Monro ('Grammar of the Homeric Dialect', 1891):

HUPO:
The preposition upo usually means beneath... The original sense, however, seems to have been upwards, as in the superlative 'uptatos' - 'uppermost' (c.f. 'hupsi' - 'aloft', 'huptios' - 'facing upwards'). On this view we can understand whyhupo is not applied (like 'kata') to express downward motion...

HUPER:
...In respect of form 'huper' (for 'huperi', Sanscrit 'upari') is a comparative of 'hupo'; cp. the Superlative 'hupatos' and the Latin 'superus', 'summus'...
phpbb
User avatar
Thucydides
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:46 pm
Location: Christ Church Oxford
Top

Postby Thucydides » Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:28 pm

hyptia wrote:If they do, it predates Proto-IE; it seems up, sub, and [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face] are from the P.I.E. root upo whereas over, super, and [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face] are from the root uper.


PIE roots of 'supo' and 'super' surely?
phpbb
User avatar
Thucydides
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:46 pm
Location: Christ Church Oxford
Top

Postby hyptia » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:42 am

Thucydides wrote:PIE roots of 'supo' and 'super' surely?

The root of 'super' for sure. Come to think of it, that must also be the root of [face=SPIonic]u(/ptioj[/face] :lol:
phpbb
User avatar
hyptia
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 1:35 am
Location: A)rizw=na
Top

Postby 1%homeless » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:01 am

Sorry to do some necromancing, but this topic in the thread is something that can't die in mind. It just drives me nuts because of the phonetic similarity and opposite meanings.

Anyway, dessus is from "de sursum" > "de sub versum". Dessous > sous is from "sub"... :twisted:
User avatar
1%homeless
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 440
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:21 am
Location: East Hollywood
Top

Postby IreneY » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:14 pm

User avatar
IreneY
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 800
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:27 am
Location: U.S.A (not American though)
Top
Post a reply

Return to Homeric Greek and Pharr's Homeric Greek - A Book For Beginners

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

Textkit - Greek & Latin Learning Tools