a question in Iliad II

[WangWei]

Iiad II 125:
ΤÏ￾ῶας μὲν λέξασθαι á¼￾φέστιοι ὅσσοι ἔασιν.
I'm just confused at the word "Trwas", why is it accusative not nominative here? (in order to agree with "ephestioi")
thanks

[IreneY]

Wang Wei they belong in two different sentences:

Sentence a = ....á¼￾θέλοιμεν λέξασθαι ΤÏ￾ῶας
Sentence b = ὅσσοι á¼￾φέστιοι ἔασιν

Does this help ?

[perispomenon]

I had the same question. It seems some editions have a nominative here. There was also a note in one of the commentaries. I will look it up for you when I get home.

[WangWei]

ach, I get it now, thank you Irene.

[perispomenon]

? Well, I do not get that? When it is an accusative, then I do not understand it.

IreneY, could you perhaps explain some more? The second sentence is dependent on the first, after all.

[IreneY]

Well the ὅσσοι is the subject of the second sentence isn't it? While quite often (if not most of the times) the relative pronoun takes the case of the word it's well, related to (in this case accusative), in this case it takes the case it should have: nominative.

Let's do a bit of analysis. (mind you I don't have the text in front of me now so I go with what I remember)

Sentence A)We, gather, the Trojans. Trojans is the object here so it is in accusative.

Sentence B) The Trojans live here. Trojans is the subject so it is in nominative.

I think it is clear if you think it in English. If we gathered the Trojans, who live here.

So the first (Trojans) has to be in accusative while the second has to be in nominative (not really but let's not complicate things).

The fact does remain that ὅσσοι refers to Trojans and the whole sentence is dependent. The case of the depenent word however is not determined by what it is related to but by what it's role within the sentence is (bar the exeption I mentioned first; this however is a quirk of the language that defies 'normal' syntactical rules)

Hope that makes some sense. It's too hot to think straight

[perispomenon]

Hi IreneY,

This is the context:

εἴ πεÏ￾ γάÏ￾ κ᾽ á¼￾θέλοιμεν Ἀχαιοί τε ΤÏ￾ῶές τε
á½…Ï￾κια πιστὰ ταμόντες á¼€Ï￾ιθμηθήμεναι ἄμφω,
ΤÏ￾ῶας μὲν λέξασθαι á¼￾φέστιοι ὅσσοι ἔασιν,
ἡμεῖς δ᾽ á¼￾Ï‚ δεκάδας διακοσμηθεῖμεν Ἀχαιοί,

In the first line, Ἀχαιοί τε ΤÏ￾ῶές τε are both nominative, I would therefore expect a nominative later on instead of ΤÏ￾ῶας, since we do see another repeat of the nominative in ἡμεῖς and Ἀχαιοί later on.

Some commentaries say, that some editions have ΤÏ￾ῶες instead of ΤÏ￾ῶας here. And that seemed more logical to me.

What do you think?

-edit: it is nice and cool here now, that's why I have the energy to harp on about this

[GlottalGreekGeek]

Another interpretation is that the accusative is used as the subject of an infinitive, which I know happens in Attic Greek, though I can't recall of hand if this happens in Homeric Greek or not.

(When a sentence makes sense in Greek, I generally don't think about the grammar too hard)

[perispomenon]

Another interpretation is that the accusative is used as the subject of an infinitive

An ACI (accusativus cum infinitivo), yes, I know it. I thought about that option, but it just seemed out of place here.

And well, I am a nitpicker, when it comes to grammar. It is my way to get inside a language. It works for me

[IreneY]

Ok I think I got it now.

Trojans being the subject of the infinitve is different of the subject of the main verb (I said object before didn't I?)

We (both) vs Trojans. I too can't remember if the ACI appears or not in Homer though and I am currently away from home so it may take me some time to check it up.

It's a case of "if we all did this and if they did that" made into one sentence I guess.

[WangWei]

ACI occurs more than once so far as I've read.
This may be an example, I think:
(II350)
φημι γαÏ￾ ουν κατανευσαι υπεÏ￾μενεα ΚÏ￾ονιωνα
ηματι τωι οτε νηυσιν εν ωκυποÏ￾οισιν εβαινον
΄΄΄΄΄΄

[Skylax]

εἴ πεÏ￾ γάÏ￾ κ᾽ á¼￾θέλοιμεν Ἀχαιοί τε ΤÏ￾ῶές τε
á½…Ï￾κια πιστὰ ταμόντες á¼€Ï￾ιθμηθήμεναι ἄμφω,
125ΤÏ￾ῶας μὲν λέξασθαι á¼￾φέστιοι ὅσσοι ἔασιν,
ἡμεῖς δ᾽ á¼￾Ï‚ δεκάδας διακοσμηθεῖμεν Ἀχαιοί,
ΤÏ￾ώων δ᾽ ἄνδÏ￾α ἕκαστοι ἑλοίμεθα οἰνοχοεύειν,
πολλαί κεν δεκάδες δευοίατο οἰνοχόοιο.

"ΤÏ￾ῶας could simply be the direct object of λέξασθαι: "if we (Achaeans and Trojans) wanted... to gather the Trojans together... and we Achaeans wanted to be marshalled by tens..."

[AQUILANTE]

please how i am write whit greek caracteres?

[AQUILANTE]

please how i am write whit greek caracteres?