a question in Iliad II
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a question in Iliad II
Iiad II 125:
Τ?ῶας μὲν λέξασθαι ?φέστιοι ὅσσοι ἔασιν.
I'm just confused at the word "Trwas", why is it accusative not nominative here? (in order to agree with "ephestioi")
thanks
Τ?ῶας μὲν λέξασθαι ?φέστιοι ὅσσοι ἔασιν.
I'm just confused at the word "Trwas", why is it accusative not nominative here? (in order to agree with "ephestioi")
thanks
- IreneY
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- IreneY
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Well the ὅσσοι is the subject of the second sentence isn't it? While quite often (if not most of the times) the relative pronoun takes the case of the word it's well, related to (in this case accusative), in this case it takes the case it should have: nominative.
Let's do a bit of analysis. (mind you I don't have the text in front of me now so I go with what I remember)
Sentence A)We, gather, the Trojans. Trojans is the object here so it is in accusative.
Sentence B) The Trojans live here. Trojans is the subject so it is in nominative.
I think it is clear if you think it in English. If we gathered the Trojans, who live here.
So the first (Trojans) has to be in accusative while the second has to be in nominative (not really but let's not complicate things).
The fact does remain that ὅσσοι refers to Trojans and the whole sentence is dependent. The case of the depenent word however is not determined by what it is related to but by what it's role within the sentence is (bar the exeption I mentioned first; this however is a quirk of the language that defies 'normal' syntactical rules)
Hope that makes some sense. It's too hot to think straight
Let's do a bit of analysis. (mind you I don't have the text in front of me now so I go with what I remember)
Sentence A)We, gather, the Trojans. Trojans is the object here so it is in accusative.
Sentence B) The Trojans live here. Trojans is the subject so it is in nominative.
I think it is clear if you think it in English. If we gathered the Trojans, who live here.
So the first (Trojans) has to be in accusative while the second has to be in nominative (not really but let's not complicate things).
The fact does remain that ὅσσοι refers to Trojans and the whole sentence is dependent. The case of the depenent word however is not determined by what it is related to but by what it's role within the sentence is (bar the exeption I mentioned first; this however is a quirk of the language that defies 'normal' syntactical rules)
Hope that makes some sense. It's too hot to think straight
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Hi IreneY,
This is the context:
εἴ πε? γά? κ᾽ ?θέλοιμεν Ἀχαιοί τε Τ?ῶές τε
ὅ?κια πιστὰ ταμόντες ἀ?ιθμηθήμεναι ἄμφω,
Τ?ῶας μὲν λέξασθαι ?φέστιοι ὅσσοι ἔασιν,
ἡμεῖς δ᾽ ?ς δεκάδας διακοσμηθεῖμεν Ἀχαιοί,
In the first line, Ἀχαιοί τε Τ?ῶές τε are both nominative, I would therefore expect a nominative later on instead of Τ?ῶας, since we do see another repeat of the nominative in ἡμεῖς and Ἀχαιοί later on.
Some commentaries say, that some editions have Τ?ῶες instead of Τ?ῶας here. And that seemed more logical to me.
What do you think?
-edit: it is nice and cool here now, that's why I have the energy to harp on about this
This is the context:
εἴ πε? γά? κ᾽ ?θέλοιμεν Ἀχαιοί τε Τ?ῶές τε
ὅ?κια πιστὰ ταμόντες ἀ?ιθμηθήμεναι ἄμφω,
Τ?ῶας μὲν λέξασθαι ?φέστιοι ὅσσοι ἔασιν,
ἡμεῖς δ᾽ ?ς δεκάδας διακοσμηθεῖμεν Ἀχαιοί,
In the first line, Ἀχαιοί τε Τ?ῶές τε are both nominative, I would therefore expect a nominative later on instead of Τ?ῶας, since we do see another repeat of the nominative in ἡμεῖς and Ἀχαιοί later on.
Some commentaries say, that some editions have Τ?ῶες instead of Τ?ῶας here. And that seemed more logical to me.
What do you think?
-edit: it is nice and cool here now, that's why I have the energy to harp on about this
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An ACI (accusativus cum infinitivo), yes, I know it. I thought about that option, but it just seemed out of place here.GlottalGreekGeek wrote:Another interpretation is that the accusative is used as the subject of an infinitive
And well, I am a nitpicker, when it comes to grammar. It is my way to get inside a language. It works for me
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Ok I think I got it now.
Trojans being the subject of the infinitve is different of the subject of the main verb (I said object before didn't I?)
We (both) vs Trojans. I too can't remember if the ACI appears or not in Homer though and I am currently away from home so it may take me some time to check it up.
It's a case of "if we all did this and if they did that" made into one sentence I guess.
Trojans being the subject of the infinitve is different of the subject of the main verb (I said object before didn't I?)
We (both) vs Trojans. I too can't remember if the ACI appears or not in Homer though and I am currently away from home so it may take me some time to check it up.
It's a case of "if we all did this and if they did that" made into one sentence I guess.