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Eph. 4:11 - construction and number of groups

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Eph. 4:11 - construction and number of groups

Postby alethof » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:42 pm

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Postby Kopio » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:34 pm

Can you post the link the the site this appeared on to see the larger context of this snip??

FWIW, I think that it is 4 groups, and that the last group is a classic TSKS constuction. (viz. Colwell construction)
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Postby Bert » Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:47 am

This exact question was asked recently on B-Greek. Here is a link to the first message. Then just click on next message for the first response etc.

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... 38225.html
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Re: Kopio

Postby alethof » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:24 am

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Re: Kopio

Postby annis » Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:31 pm

William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby IreneY » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:25 pm

I have to admit that this is one of the cases where I am 100% sure of the exact translation in English since when it comes to ancient Greek I usually first think of them in modern Greek and then English and, in this case, we'd use the same wording (men -de).

The men-de in this cases is more like a differentiating(?) factor. What I mean is that it serves to show that each group was made of different people (and I realise that this explanation probably need explaining itself but I am not up to it right now)

So, maybe, you could use "others" or even "some" in English, though I am not sure it is necessary.
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Postby alethof » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:42 am

Do we have double accusative in Eph.4:11?

kai [and] autos [he] edwken [gave] tous [ACCUSATIVE_1/these] men [(on one hand)] [(impl./TO BE)] apostolous [ACCUSATIVE_2], etc.
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Postby Kopio » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:03 pm

alethof wrote:Do we have double accusative in Eph.4:11?

kai [and] autos [he] edwken [gave] tous [ACCUSATIVE_1/these] men [(on one hand)] [(impl./TO BE)] apostolous [ACCUSATIVE_2], etc.


First.....you really don't need to post the English equivalents in this forum. If you were on the Open board it would be appropriate, but here we pretty well assume you know a bit of Greek. You still can if you want, but for me, it is a little more difficult to read.

Second....IMO what we have here is a hendiadys. Yes they are both in the accusative, but they are ONE group (as I've said before). I am really curious why this is such an issue? To me it seems to be a simple grammatical conclusion.
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Postby IreneY » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:23 pm

Probably because this is one of the most disputed (or if you wish missinterpreted) parts of the Bible.

It has been translated/interpreted in quite different ways depending on what one wants to 'prove'.
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Postby alethof » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:45 am

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Re: Eph. 4:11 - construction and number of groups

Postby joja » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: The 5 FOLD MINISTRY, Shepherds As Pastors

----------------------------

" The word "pastor" means "a shepherd, one who shepherds the sheep."

"Pastor" means "a shepherd," to watch over the flock, to teach them the Word of God."

"Wherever the Shepherd goes, the sheep follow, "My sheep know My voice, and a stranger they will not follow." That's right. He... That shepherd knows grunts and everything else that make those sheep behave.
Then when we got out of the city, it was an amazing thing, I seen a--a field out there and some men laying around; they had donkeys, and cows, and pigs, and sheep, and goats, and everything out there. And I said, "Well, what's them guys out there?"
He said, "Shepherds."
And I said, "A shepherd herding donkeys?"
And he said, "Yes, sir."
Well, I said, "I--I thought a shepherd just meant sheep."
He said, "No. 'Shepherd' is a 'herder, grazer.' And over in your country they call them cowboys and--and things like that."
I said, "Oh, I see, a shepherd is a herder."
"Yes."
"He watches the herd."
"That's right." He said, "The strange thing is at nighttime, where you--it's striking... You being a minister, and I might tell you something." He said, "When nighttime comes... It's true he pastors every one of them, leads them around and helps them and see that they get good things through the day. But when nighttime comes the--all the--the mules, and the donkeys, and the--the camels, and whatever he's got, is left out into the field. But he rounds up the sheep and takes them to the corral."

"Oh," I said, "Lord, make me a sheep, whatever You do." See? For when the nighttime comes, I want to go into the sheepfold.
He said,
...I am the door to the sheepfold.
All that ever come before me is thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
I am the door: by me if any man enters in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture." - William M. Branham
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