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I'm not following this

Postby bingley » Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:01 am

I'm reading Nepos's life of Lysander at the moment and I'm having problems with the first paragraph.<br /><br />My first problem is in this part:<br /><br />Lysander Lacedaemonius magnam reliquit sui famam, magis felicitate quam virtute partam. Atheniensis enim in Peloponnesios sexto et vicesimo anno bellum gerentes confecisse apparet. id qua ratione consecutus sit, non latet.<br /><br />What is the subject of apparet? Is it impersonal? In which case I make the sentence: It appears that the Athenians had completed a 26th year of waging war against the Peloponnesians. <br /><br />However, if that is the correct meaning, the next sentence, where I think Lysander is the subject means the whole passage seems (to me at any rate) to involve rather an abrupt switching back and forth of subject. If Lysander is also the subject of apparet, then I don't see where the subject accusative and infinitive fits in.<br /><br />Why is consecutus sit in the subjunctive? I make the sentence: By what means he achieved this is not obscure. <br /><br />Next problem: <br /><br />hac victoria Lysander elatus, cum antea semper factiosus audaxque fuisset, sic sibi indulsit, ut eius opera in maximum odium Graeciae Lacedaemonii pervenerint. <br /><br />My problem is with eius opera. If Lacedeamonii is the subject of pervenerint, how does eius opera fit in? I would have expected eius operibus as an ablative of cause.<br /><br />Last one:<br /><br />namque undique qui Atheniensium rebus studuissent, eiectis, decem delegerat in una quaque civitate, quibus summum imperium potestatemque omnium rerum committeret. horum in numerum nemo admittebatur, nisi qui aut eius hospitio contineretur aut se illius fore proprium fide confirmarat. <br /><br />My problem is with the part in bold. I can't keep straight who eius, se, and illius each refers to. And what does proprium go with?<br /><br />The full context can be seen here: <br />http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/n_vir306.html<br /><br />Am I being over-ambitious in trying to read this, or is it actually very difficult?<br /> :( ???
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Re:I'm not following this

Postby Skylax » Thu Aug 21, 2003 8:41 am

[quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=522;start=0#4563 date=1061438500]<br /><br /><br />What is the subject of apparet? Is it impersonal? In which case I make the sentence: It appears that the Athenians had completed a 26th year of waging war against the Peloponnesians. <br /><br />However, if that is the correct meaning, the next sentence, where I think Lysander is the subject means the whole passage seems (to me at any rate) to involve rather an abrupt switching back and forth of subject. If Lysander is also the subject of apparet, then I don't see where the subject accusative and infinitive fits in.<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />It is uncommon, indeed. Maybe the subject of the infinitive is implied (as is it the same as the subject of the preceding verb), as in Cicero, Philippics, 2, 84 :!<br /><br /> non dissimulat, patres conscripti: apparet esse commotum; sudat, pallet. "He does not dissemble, O conscript fathers; it is plain that he is agitated; he perspires; he turns pale." (Translation : Yonge) The accusative commotum agrees with an implied eum, so <br /><br />"it appears that he defeated the Athenians who have made war against the Peloponnesians for 25 years."<br /><br />
Why is consecutus sit in the subjunctive?
<br /><br />It belongs to an indirect question (subjunctive denoting a subordinate clause). Translation ok.<br /><br />
My problem is with eius opera.
<br /><br />Plural nominative, subject of pervenerint : "his deeds were finally hated" (or something more English)<br /><br />
nisi qui aut eius hospitio contineretur aut se illius fore proprium fide confirmarat.<br /><br />I can't keep straight who eius, se, and illius each refers to. And what does proprium go with?
<br /><br />Eius = Lysandri, gen after hospitio "his..."<br />se : antecedent is the subject of confirmarat i.e.qui; se is sing acc, subject of the infinitive fore<br />illius = one more time Lysandri genitive after proprium "peculiar to him", "his property".<br />proprium is masc. sing. accusative, predicate adjective of se<br /><br />So (in French) : "sinon celui qui était lié à lui par un lien d'hospitalité ou celui qui avait assuré qu'il lui appartenait par un lien de fidélité." (More ore less : "except the one who was tied to him by hospitality or the one who had guaranteed that he was his faithful henchman")
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Re:I'm not following this

Postby bingley » Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:28 am

Thank you, Scylax. <br /><br />I'm still not clear about this: ut eius opera in maximum odium Graeciae Lacedaemonii pervenerint. <br /><br />If eius opera is subject, we have: <br />... that his deeds brought (him?) into Greece's great hatred (more fluently .. that his deeds made him greatly hated in Greece)<br /><br />but where does Lacedaemonii fit in? Is it a genitive masculine singular or a nominative masculine plural? Either way it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the sentence. <br />
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Re:I'm not following this

Postby Skylax » Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:18 am

ooooh excuse me ! :-[ I didn't even see Lacedaemonii ! Well it is not opus, operis, it is opera, operae "service, pains, exertion, work, labor". Eius opera means "through his fault" (the Lacedemonians were hated)
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Re:I'm not following this

Postby bingley » Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:51 pm

Ah. Thank you. I didn't even know there was an opera operae :o. I just assumed opus operis. Makes much more sense now.
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Re:I'm not following this

Postby Skylax » Thu Aug 21, 2003 7:42 pm

By the way operae, operarum was the Latin name of the "gangs" in the pay of politicians that caused so much trouble in Rome at the end of the Republic. (Clodii operae "the gang of Clodius")
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Re:I'm not following this

Postby adz000 » Fri Aug 22, 2003 1:13 am

My schoolboy edition of Nepos (ed. by Kirchever Arnold), which is unusually helpful, notes that apparet is always used impersonally by Nepos, adding that in such indirect statements N. tends to leave out the accusative object; so Pausanius 1, 5, dedisse with a missing se, Paus. 2, 2 effugisse, etc. <br /><br />If you come across anything by Arnold: prose composition books, grammars, annotated editions, I highly recommend you get it. Some of his statements are not to be trusted, as with much philology from the 19th century, but he has a disarming amount of knowledge presented in ways that are palatable to students. For example, his Nepos text structures its annotations around questions for the student, with the answers in small print along the bottom of the page. He includes at the end of each biography ia Latin composition exercise. Questions ad. loc. include:<br /><br />1. Explain sui.<br />2. Distinguish between felicitas and fortuna. <br />3. Is felicitas here merely = fortuna? <br />4. In apparet-confecisse is the construction probably (is) apparet - confecisse; or apparet (impersonally) - (eum)confecisse? <br />5. Give your reasons for thinking so <br />... <br />8. What Greek construction is like this [sc. apparet + inf]? <br />9. Explain conficere. <br />10. How is the present tense to be construed in sexto et vicesimo anno bellum gero? <br />11. Is there any inconsistency in saying that the cause is unknown, then declaring it? <br />...etc.<br /><br />Pedantic, yes. Misleading, sometimes. Helpful, always.
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Re:I'm not following this

Postby bingley » Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:15 am

Where can I get hold of this work?
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Re:I'm not following this

Postby adz000 » Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:23 pm

Used bookstores.<br /><br />Knowing how to get rare books online is a necessity, I'm shocked this question comes up as often as it does. <br /><br />http://abebooks.com<br /><br />http://alibris.com<br /><br />http://bookfinder.com<br /><br />occasionally http://ebay.com<br /><br />also sometimes http://half.com<br /><br />http://amazon.com also sells used books but generally not as successful as the other searches.<br /><br />Full name: Thomas Kirchever Arnold. Another Arnold (haven't been able to tease out the family relation, though there must be some) translated Latin Synonymes which came up in another thread, and is one of the few works for the student to treat nuances in meaning among Latin's many apparent synonyms. He published a number of beginner works, including a prose composition book (in my opinion one of the best) which has been subsequently revised by a number of pedants.<br />
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Re:I'm not following this

Postby bingley » Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:11 am

My problem is shipping costs. Getting the Greek: An Intensive Course cost me as much in shipping as the actual book.<br /><br />Jeff, if you come across this edition of Cornelius Nepos, please, pretty please put it on textkit [where's the begging emoticon?].
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Re:I'm not following this

Postby adz000 » Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:59 am

How are the used bookstores in your area? I think there's a thread on this topic going on in the Open Board but I don't know if it's any good. If you're from a country in Europe, it's my fantasy that classic books are to be bought for a dime (oweing to the long Latin dominance of the curriculum).
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Re:I'm not following this

Postby bingley » Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:58 am

I live in Jakarta. Not many 2nd hand bookshops, and certainly none that stock classics. Though I did get my Latin dictionary in Kuta.
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