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Participial phrases

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Participial phrases

Postby elduce » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:29 pm

Stoopib brings up a question of participial phrases. Can you use Cum clauses without a verb to make participial phrases, and did the Romans ever use them?

Since joining the senate, he has found little time to himself.

Cum senatum iungens, invenit parvum temporis sibi.
(I put 'iungens' next to 'invenit' to avoid confusion.)

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Postby jjhayes84 » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:34 pm

From Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar for Schools and Colleges

In particular, cum with the Subjunctive was used in narrative (hence the past tenses, Imperfect and Pluperfect) as a descriptive clause of time. As, however, the present participle in Latin is restricted in its use and the perfect active participle is almost wholly lacking, the historical or narrative cum-clause came into extensive use to supply the deficiency.


I'm no expert by any means, so take this with a handful of salt, but I did a quick search for cum with a participle and didn't find anything. This above statement seems to indicate that cum is used in a participial manner, so adding a participle would be redundant.

I hope that helps.
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Postby filiakaiagapi » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:42 pm

Is this a part from a larger frase or not? because is very important to know this. Cum, as far as we all know cannot be something else than a conjonction or preposition. But her is non of this...Hm, :? this is quite a dillema!
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Postby fierywrath » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:49 pm

try greek
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Postby jjhayes84 » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:59 pm

I think you're more likely to see something like:

Cum senator sit, invenit parvum temporis sibi.

For 2 reasons:

1. Romans used cum w/ subjective often
2. I'm not sure iungo can be used to mean "join a group as a member."

If you want to use a participle, I'd use an ablative absolute.

Maybe: senatum iungente, inventi.... ?
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Postby elduce » Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:38 pm

I asked this question because Stoopib (in a post above mine) said that the teacher wanted the answer in a participial phrase using 'cum.'


PS As to fierywrath, I do not appreciate your comments. I've seen a few of your replies in this tone. If you enjoy being a jerk, go elsewhere. I recommend one of those video game forums where people use the word 'dude' copiously and talk about level seven of Dungeon Raider 10.
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Postby bellum paxque » Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:11 pm

I think fierywrath's point was that participial phrases are more versatile in Greek. Having never studied the language, though, I'm basing the statement on hearsay and (a notoriously unreliable) memory.

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Postby Deudeditus » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:45 pm

wouldn't the pres. part. iungens refer to an action contemporaneous with the main verb? So wouldn't using cum with the indicative form of the verb to describe the precise time of action be kind of redundant? just a question, as I don't really, know either.
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Postby zhongv1979 » Tue May 30, 2006 3:34 am

I don't think so... unless you are using an ablative absolute, I guess you must let your participle agree with the noun that it modifies? In this case there is no such noun available in this sentense?

Deudeditus wrote:wouldn't the pres. part. iungens refer to an action contemporaneous with the main verb? So wouldn't using cum with the indicative form of the verb to describe the precise time of action be kind of redundant? just a question, as I don't really, know either.
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