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Trouble with pronouns

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Trouble with pronouns

Postby sam0523 » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:04 pm

Hi everyone. I'm new to Greek and have been trying to work through White's First Greek Book. I'm having a little trouble with Lesson XVII, specifically Paragraph 162, question 10 where it says "[face=SPIonic]oi( te au)tou= e)kei/nou[/face]" I assume it is refering back to "the soldiers" but I was wondering why it was in the genitive singular. Does it mean "of that same"? I'm probably just overlooking some obvious answer but it's been driving me crazy trying to figure it out. Thanks for any help you can give.
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Re:Trouble with pronouns

Postby klewlis » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:01 pm

can you give us the full sentence for context?
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Re:Trouble with pronouns

Postby sam0523 » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:26 pm

Sorry about that. The complete sentence reads: [face=SPIonic]tau=ta e)/lece Kle/arkoj. oi( de\ stratiw=tai, oi(/ te au)tou= e)kei/nou kai\ oi( a)/lloi, e)ke/leuon au)to\n a)/gein th\n stratia/n[/face]. If I'm doing it right, it says, "Clearchus said this, but the soldiers, both (that same?) and the rest, commanded him to lead the army. Thanks again.
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Re:Trouble with pronouns

Postby klewlis » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:30 pm

I think it's:<br /><br />"the soldiers, both his own and the others ...."<br /><br />
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Re:Trouble with pronouns

Postby sam0523 » Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:43 am

Thanks for the help. :)
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Re:Trouble with pronouns

Postby Paul » Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:46 am

Hi,<br /><br />I think the sense of [face=SPIonic]oi(/ te au)tou= e)kei/nou kai\ oi( a)/lloi,[/face] might be "both each individually and all together". <br /><br />So the sentence would translate something like: "Klearchus said these things; and the soldiers, both individually and all together, urged him to lead the army".<br /><br />All three instances of [face=SPIonic]oi([/face] are, I think, demonstrative; the 'article' in Attic Greek.<br /><br />Perhaps the more radical meaning of the genitive in [face=SPIonic]au)tou= e)kei/nou [/face] is something like "out of that soldier himself".<br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Paul<br />
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Re:Trouble with pronouns

Postby bingley » Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:34 am

A quick glance at the LSJ entry for [face=SPIonic]a)/lloj [/face] doesn't show any examples where it means all together without any reference to others. Since this example comes from a beginners' book I think it's unlikely to be anything very recherche rather than the more obvious meaning klewlis has suggested.
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Re:Trouble with pronouns

Postby Skylax » Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:04 pm

I agree with klewlis, too. The point is that there were different groups of Greek soldiers commanded by different generals. The sentence points out that Clearchus' words were much appreciated, not only by his own troops (what wouldn't have been so convincing).
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Re:Trouble with pronouns

Postby Paul » Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:50 pm

[quote author=bingley link=board=2;threadid=512;start=0#4486 date=1061357669]<br />A quick glance at the LSJ entry for [face=SPIonic]a)/lloj [/face] doesn't show any examples where it means all together without any reference to others.[/quote]<br /><br />Agreed. LSJ gives "all the others, the rest" for [face=SPIonic]oi( a)/lloi[/face]. Had I been right about the meaning of [face=SPIonic]au)tou= e)kei/nou[/face], and you and skylax are convincing me that I am not, then translating it as "all together" was an attempt to make the contrast between the soldiers acting individually and as a whole.<br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Paul
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