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Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

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Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby Adelheid » Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:16 pm

Hi all,

Since the Pharr-b group is on its way to the last 100 lines of Iliad book 1, I am already searching for a commentary to the following books.

Can anyone perhaps give info on the value of this one:

The Iliad: A Commentary: Volume 1, Books 1-4: Bks.1-4 Vol 1
G. S. Kirk (Editor)

Apparently the Greek text is not included, but that's no problem. I am curious to know if it gives the same type of extra info and hints as Pharr does.

I have seen a commentary on Perseus too.
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby annis » Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:29 pm

Adelheid wrote:Since the Pharr-b group is on its way to the last 100 lines of Iliad book 1, I am already searching for a commentary to the following books.


Excellent! Another successful study group. We've had some wither recently, so that makes me happy.

The Iliad: A Commentary: Volume 1, Books 1-4: Bks.1-4 Vol 1
G. S. Kirk (Editor)

Apparently the Greek text is not included, but that's no problem. I am curious to know if it gives the same type of extra info and hints as Pharr does.


The Kirk et al. volumes are nothing like Pharr. This is a full-blown scholarly commentary, with discussion on textual, historical and literary matters. It does not usually talk about grammar. They are very interesting, and you might want to get the first volume anyway, but for grammatical help you'll still need to go elsewhere.

Most like Pharr is Benner's "Selections from Homer's Iliad." It has large selections (all of book 2 except the catalog of ships, for example), grammar notes, a precis of Homeric grammar, and vocabulary, all in one book for about US$20. An out of copyright version of that provides some of the commentary notes at Perseus, but frankly I find books nicer for reading than web pages.

M.M. Willcock's two Iliad volumes have the text (all of it), grammar guidance and some literary notes, but no vocabulary. I have both volumes, and they are useful, but I find the print way to small for pleasant reading.

This question comes up regularly. Perhaps I should make a sticky or FAQ post.
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby Adelheid » Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:39 pm

annis wrote:The Kirk et al. volumes are nothing like Pharr. This is a full-blown scholarly commentary, with discussion on textual, historical and literary matters. It does not usually talk about grammar. They are very interesting, and you might want to get the first volume anyway, but for grammatical help you'll still need to go elsewhere.


I think I will go for Willcock first then. Thanks for the info.
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby annis » Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:24 pm

Adelheid wrote:I think I will go for Willcock first then.


I would strongly recommend Cunliffe's dictionary to go with that. It's nearly as good as a beginner's commentary for tricky morphology.
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Postby Adelheid » Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:25 pm

Ah, but Cunliffe I have already :)
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Postby annis » Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:27 pm

Adelheid wrote:Ah, but Cunliffe I have already :)


Then you're set!
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Postby Adelheid » Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:29 pm

On my way :D
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby Adelheid » Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:36 pm

annis wrote:Excellent! Another successful study group. We've had some wither recently, so that makes me happy.


I was wondering: how is the Odyssey group going? The one that started with book 1 and will go on until the last book?
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Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:21 am

I second the recommendation for the Cunliffe-Willcock combo. It works well for me.
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Postby Rindu » Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:07 am

I'm using Benner in a class right now; we're reading books 1 and 18.

It has a Dictionary, commentary, and a short Homeric Grammar. I suppose the Grammar section wouldn't be necessary for someone who has Pharr. The commentary is graded; it is less helpful for the later books.

12 books of the Iliad are represented, 5 of which are complete. So, I suppose if one wants to read the Iliad in its entirety, Benner would not be the text to go with. The commentary at points is a little misleading or confusing, or at least suggests interpretations which both I and my professor disagree with.

I also find myself relying more on Cunliffe than the glossary provided in Benner. This is to no fault of Benner; rather, Cunliffe produced a work of such high calibre that nothing else seems worthwhile.

I plan on reading all of the text in Benner, after which I believe I will be competent enough at reading Homer that I will no longer have any need of a commentary for helps, and can then proceed to read directly from the OCTs.
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby Rindu » Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:10 am

Adelheid wrote:I was wondering: how is the Odyssey group going? The one that started with book 1 and will go on until the last book?


Well, I registered for this group a few days ago, but have not heard from the administrator (whoever that may be), so I have assumed that the group is dead.
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby annis » Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:58 pm

Rindu wrote:Well, I registered for this group a few days ago, but have not heard from the administrator (whoever that may be), so I have assumed that the group is dead.


Blast! I should be getting notified about that.

But yes, the list withered and went silent.

It may not have been a great idea to have an open-ended plan like that. If this were revived, I'd make it a fixed reading, a particular book, or a predetermined selection.
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby Adelheid » Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:32 pm

annis wrote:It may not have been a great idea to have an open-ended plan like that. If this were revived, I'd make it a fixed reading, a particular book, or a predetermined selection.


May I suggest book 2 of the Iliad :D

No self interest at all ofcourse, and secret plans of keeping on reading the Iliad after that, until book 24.
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby Paul » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:06 am

Adelheid wrote:May I suggest book 2 of the Iliad :D


In the words of the great Smokey Robinson, I second that emotion.

Cordially,

Paul
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby Adelheid » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:49 am

Paul wrote:
Adelheid wrote:May I suggest book 2 of the Iliad :D


In the words of the great Smokey Robinson, I second that emotion.


Do I see an opportunity here? I think Pharr-b will finish in about 2 months, I guess. It would be great to be able to continue reading the Iliad, together with a group.
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby annis » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:28 pm

Adelheid wrote:May I suggest book 2 of the Iliad


With or without the Catalog of Ships? :twisted:
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby Adelheid » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:40 pm

annis wrote:With or without the Catalog of Ships? :twisted:


I would say: we cut no corners :lol: .

I could crunch through it on my own, on the side, if the resentment would be too great. It's just 266 lines, after all :shock:

p.s. Without the catalog, could we then make it a book 2-book 3 combined experience?
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Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:27 pm

I too would join an Illiad Book 2 group.

I would want to throw in the Catalogue too. It's not exactly a gripping read, but supplemented with archeological data it could spur some interesting discussions.
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Postby Adelheid » Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:19 pm

GlottalGreekGeek wrote:I too would join an Illiad Book 2 group.

I would want to throw in the Catalogue too. It's not exactly a gripping read, but supplemented with archeological data it could spur some interesting discussions.


Yeeaah! Let's organize an Iliad book 2 group?
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby Bert » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:33 pm

annis wrote:
It may not have been a great idea to have an open-ended plan like that. If this were revived, I'd make it a fixed reading, a particular book, or a predetermined selection.

I'm not sure how this open-ended plan was meant to work nor why it didn't work but some of the more structured ones sizzled away to almost nothing as well.
If an Iliad β is planned, will it be run like Pharr-a, ie; people entering submissions and guides commenting on them, or will it be the participants commenting on each other's submissions.
What I'm getting at is this; If it is going to be like Pharr-a, I wondered if it would work to have people join whenever they feel like it as long as there are no more than a pre-determined # participating at once.
It has a marked disadvantage, namely; Because there is no group of people at the same point in the book, the "group" discussions won't be as meaningful.
It does have advantages as well;
- People wanting to participate won't have to wait untill a group (that may have dwindled to one or two) has reached the finish line so that another group can start.
- Guides won't have to work their butt of to comment on the work of all 12 or so participants for the first few weeks and then only have 2 people left to finish the group.
The workload would be fairly constant if someone could join as soon as someone else finished or dropped off.
The Mounce-a group had a lot of interest at first but only a few made it as far as the 3rd week. But there have been others wondering if they could join.
Do the pros out-weigh the cons?
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby Adelheid » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:16 pm

Bert wrote:Do the pros out-weigh the cons?


An Iliad 2 is not more than a thought right now, but your comments seem valid enough. What I liked about Pharr-b (and I think a reasonable enough amount of participants will make it unto the end) is, that there was support, a place to ask questions to people who would know beforehand what you where on about. Plus kind of an incentive to keep on going.
To expect discussion is always difficult: I have experienced some kind of inertia at different levels in life, where you would have liked to see lively discussion. I think, that's not what you necessarily would want to expect of these groups. It would just be marvelous to be continuing to read one of the great pieces of literature and to know you are not on your own.
Posting questions on this forum comes close, but I would prefer a group effort.
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby Bert » Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:18 am

Adelheid wrote:To expect discussion is always difficult: I have experienced some kind of inertia at different levels in life, where you would have liked to see lively discussion. I think, that's not what you necessarily would want to expect of these groups.

I am a graduate of the Pharr-a group and we did have some very helpful discussions. That would be lost in the sort of 'perpetual reading group' I am suggesting. Four people finished the group. I think that is fine.
Now I am involved in two other groups, one of which is still going a bit (but the participants are not at the same level so the group effect is lost anyway) and the other is "op sterven na dood." (Just about dead.)
The one had good discussions but the other had hardly any discussions at all.
I don't know the real solution to these problems but I thought I would trow in a possibility.
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Re: Looking for a commentary on Iliad book 2 and further

Postby annis » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:23 am

Bert wrote:If an Iliad β is planned, will it be run like Pharr-a, ie; people entering submissions and guides commenting on them, or will it be the participants commenting on each other's submissions.


In the past straight-ahead reading like this doesn't have guides, just other people commenting on people's translations, or answering questions. The Perpetual Odyssey (requiscat in pace) was very chatty at the start. I shudder to think about correcting chunks of the Iliad every week. I'm not sure we'd find a guide.

There's obviously interest in an Iliad B group. Should it hold off until Pharr-B is done? How many weeks are left in that?
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Postby Rindu » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:42 am

I too would be interested in this. I have no idea how it ought to run or would run, since I've never done anything like this before. I might have to figure out how to work with Greek fonts in email and whatnot.
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Postby Paul » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:47 am

Will - we've 8 weeks left in pharr-b.

Rindu - e-mail? Where we're going, we don't need e-mail. :)

I'd consider being a guide. But we've got to nix the catalog!

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Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:38 am

Actually, I've already read Iliad Beta. I am more interested in the group as a chance to do some in-depth-ish analysis and discussion. I kept a notebook where I wrote down the definition of every word and marked out all of the inflections, which I would certainly use should I join the group. I used a different treatment for the Catalogue ... speaking of which, it is not very challenging linguistically, so I suppose there is not much need to go over it in a reading group, should it turn too many people away.
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Postby Adelheid » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:20 am

GlottalGreekGeek wrote:I kept a notebook where I wrote down the definition of every word and marked out all of the inflections, which I would certainly use should I join the group.


Did you also do something with meter? With book 1 I have focused on translating, not on meter at all, but at some point in reading Homer I do want to be able to appreciate that part of the work too.
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Postby Rindu » Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:08 pm

The scansion isn't too difficult. I've been learning this in class and we typically read Homer aloud.
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Postby Adelheid » Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:13 pm

Rindu wrote:The scansion isn't too difficult


Perhaps, but without the possibility to check my own scansion (I am not in school anymore), I could be getting it all wrong, without realizing it. Add to that, that I am no natural talent. It took me quite a while (plus googling in newsgroups) to get the scansion of Iliad A3 right.
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Postby chad » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:07 am

i could scan iliad B for you guys if you want. it only took about an hour to do iliad a here

http://www.freewebs.com/mhninaeide/Ilia ... an2005.pdf
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Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:09 am

I have the scansion of Iliad B up to line 167. I stopped scanning it after that because it became so easy it was redundant. Now, when I read aloud an unfamiliar line of dactylic hexameter, I almost always hit the correct meter on the first reading, even with vowels of supposedly unknown quantity. My mouth has mastered the dactylic rhythm I suppose.
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Postby Rindu » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:20 am

GlottalGreekGeek wrote: My mouth has mastered the dactylic rhythm I suppose.


Yep, this is what happens. It's uncanny.
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Postby Adelheid » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:58 pm

chad wrote:i could scan iliad B for you guys if you want.


It would be nice for reference, for me at least.
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Postby annis » Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:37 pm

Paul wrote:Will - we've 8 weeks left in pharr-b.


How many people have made it into the home stretch? If they're not regular readers of the forum, can someone ask how many would participate in the group. If some of them are interested, can others bear to wait until they're done?

Rindu - e-mail? Where we're going, we don't need e-mail.


I disagree. Unless you've plugged a forum into GTSS, email is still the best way for the longer conversations about the poem that people have expressed interest in.
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Postby Paul » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:00 pm

It's been a great group. We still have 7 regular posters out of an initial group of 11.

My paraphrase of Doc Brown in "Back to the Future" assumes that an Iliad B group would use GTSS.

Cordially,

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Postby chad » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:34 pm

It would be nice for reference, for me at least.


ok, i'll do it quickly sometime in the next few days. it sounds like ggg and rindu are also going to scan iliad B for your group (otherwise i don't get their responses to your request).
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Postby Rindu » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:38 pm

I wasn't planning on scanning; I was just commenting that it is pretty easy to do.
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Postby Adelheid » Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:40 pm

chad wrote:
It would be nice for reference, for me at least.


ok, i'll do it quickly sometime in the next few days.


That would be great! Thank you.
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Will there be an Iliad 2 group?

Postby Adelheid » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:03 pm

From the preceding posts I gather that an Iliad 2 group is not unthinkable.

What are the actions necessary to make this official?

I have 74 lines to go in book 1. I can be ready for book 2 in a short while (less than 8 weeks surely).

Do we first start a poll to test the waters?
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Postby Rindu » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:47 pm

I would be happy to wait a full 8 weeks. I wouldn't be able to join if it started sooner than this. Right now, I'm reading Books 1 and 18, as well as Agamemnon, Cicero's In Verrem 2.4, Plautus's Casina and Shopenhauer's Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung. So, uh....I guess I could try to catch up with you guys later maybe; I want to read as much Homer as possible over the summer anyway.
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