Latin to English translation, exercise 368

[Andrus]

Saluēte omnēs,

As there isn’t a key for the Latin to English translation of the exercises on the last lessons of the D’Ooge book I would like to ask for some checking of my answers. Thanks in advance for any correction and suggestions.

Exercise 368 (pag. 159 of the book)

1-“Petit atque hortÄ￾tur ut ipse dÄ«catâ€￾
He asks and urges that himself say it

2-“Caesar HelvÄ“tiÄ«s imperÄ￾vit nÄ“ per prÅ￾vinciam iter facerentâ€￾
Caesar commanded the Helvetics that they didn’t march trough the province

3-“Caeser nÅ￾n iussit HelvÄ“tiÅ￾s per prÅ￾vinciam iter facereâ€￾
Caeser didn’t order the Helvetics to march trough the province

4- “Ille cÄ«vibus persuÄ￾sit ut dÄ“ fÄ«nibus suÄ«s discÄ“derentâ€￾
He persuaded the citizens to leave their lands

5-“Caeser prÄ«ncipÄ“s monÄ“bit nÄ“ proelium committantâ€￾
Caeser will advise the chiefs to not join the battle

6-“PostulÄ￾vit nÄ“ cum HelvÄ“tiÄ«s aut cum eÅ￾rum sociÄ«s bellum gerentâ€￾
He demanded that they don’t make war on the Helvetics or on their allies

7-“Ab iÄ«s quaesÄ«vÄ« nÄ“ proficÄ«scerenturâ€￾
I asked (them) to not set out from them

8-“iÄ«s persuÄ￾dÄ“re nÅ￾n potuÄ« ut domÄ« manÄ“rentâ€￾
I couldn’t persuade them to stay at home

Valēte

Andrus

[Chris Weimer]

I'm not familiar with D'Ooge, but I think these are better ways to translate what you've done. I see you're in Portugal, so perhaps English isn't your strong point, so let me help.

1-“Petit atque hortÄ￾tur ut ipse dÄ«catâ€￾
He asks and urges that himself say it

"He asks and urges that he speak." Here ipse is probably best translated as a personal pronoun, or perhaps an intensive, but still "he" is needed.

2-“Caesar HelvÄ“tiÄ«s imperÄ￾vit nÄ“ per prÅ￾vinciam iter facerentâ€￾
Caesar commanded the Helvetics that they didn’t march trough the province

Perhaps this is D'Ooge's way of translating ne + subjunctive, but I prefer this: "Caesar ruled the Helvetians lest they make a journey through the province."

5-“Caeser prÄ«ncipÄ“s monÄ“bit nÄ“ proelium committantâ€￾
Caeser will advise the chiefs to not join the battle

In this case, yours sounds better than "lest" (indirect command).

7-“Ab iÄ«s quaesÄ«vÄ« nÄ“ proficÄ«scerenturâ€￾
I asked (them) to not set out from them

I believe ab iis should belong in the first clause.

Chris Weimer

[Andrus]

Hi Chris,

First thanks for having taken the time to check my answers. In fact my English sometimes is where I have some problems.

Andrus wrote:
1-“Petit atque hortÄ￾tur ut ipse dÄ«catâ€￾
He asks and urges that himself say it

"He asks and urges that he speak." Here ipse is probably best translated as a personal pronoun, or perhaps an intensive, but still "he" is needed.

You are right. I wasn’t happy with the phrase I wrote and your sounds much better. I must remember that although when translating from Latin to English or Portuguese that every word in Latin must be translated but that doesn’t mean that no more words are need in the target language.

Quote:
2-“Caesar HelvÄ“tiÄ«s imperÄ￾vit nÄ“ per prÅ￾vinciam iter facerentâ€￾
Caesar commanded the Helvetics that they didn’t march trough the province

Perhaps this is D'Ooge's way of translating ne + subjunctive, but I prefer this: "Caesar ruled the Helvetians lest they make a journey through the province."

D’Ooge also uses that kind of translation of nÄ“ + subjunctive but in “porpuse clausesâ€￾. The subject of this lesson is the “object clauseâ€￾, which, as he teaches it (this book is my only source of my Latin studies so far), the verb “imperÅ￾â€￾ uses to tell what is ordered. So by the logic of the lesson I think my answer is more correct, but of course you couldn’t know it.
I must confess that usually I don’t memorize the grammar terms, but these are still fresh in my mind as I did just finished to study them.

Quote:
7-“Ab iÄ«s quaesÄ«vÄ« nÄ“ proficÄ«scerenturâ€￾
I asked (them) to not set out from them

I believe ab iis should belong in the first clause.

Once more you are right. The correct translation is probably like:

“I sought (asked) from them that they don’t set outâ€￾

although I’m not sure if the dependent clause should be in the present or in the past.

Once more my thanks Chris,

Andrus

[bellum paxque]

Quote:
Quote:
2-“Caesar HelvÄ“tiÄ«s imperÄ￾vit nÄ“ per prÅ￾vinciam iter facerentâ€￾
Caesar commanded the Helvetics that they didn’t march trough the province

Perhaps this is D'Ooge's way of translating ne + subjunctive, but I prefer this: "Caesar ruled the Helvetians lest they make a journey through the province."


D’Ooge also uses that kind of translation of nÄ“ + subjunctive but in “porpuse clausesâ€￾. The subject of this lesson is the “object clauseâ€￾, which, as he teaches it (this book is my only source of my Latin studies so far), the verb “imperÅ￾â€￾ uses to tell what is ordered. So by the logic of the lesson I think my answer is more correct, but of course you couldn’t know it.
I must confess that usually I don’t memorize the grammar terms, but these are still fresh in my mind as I did just finished to study them.

I'd translate this sentence as "Caesar commanded the Helvetians not to make a journey through the province." Many times, English uses an infinitive phrase where Latin uses a finite verb phrase.

If you do want to render a command clause with a clause in English, you should use the subjunctive (yikes, in English, that's usually the uninflected form). So,

Caesar commanded the Helvetics that they didn’t march trough the province

becomes

Caesar commanded that the Helvetics not march through the province.

This type of construction with "command" is very rare in spoken English, and uncommon in written. I suppose there is some utility in letting the English translation model the syntax of the Latin, especially if you are in a classroom setting. After all, the text that I used recommended that I translate* purpose clauses (e.g. id dixisti ut me invenires) with an adverbial clause: "you said it so that you might find me." While this reflects the sequence of tenses and the Latin syntax, it flouts English idiom. I'd say, "you said it in order to find me," or better yet, "you said it to find me."

Chris's translation is possible, since impero can mean "to rule" as well as "to command," but when followed with a command clause (which D'Ooge calls an object clause, I take it) it's much more likely to mean "order." Context, of course, will limit the meaning.

Regards,

David

*notice the "object clause" in this sentence. "Recommend" is, I think, unusual in this respect. I couldn't grammatically say, "I recommended you to translate."

[Chris Weimer]

Chris's translation is possible, since impero can mean "to rule" as well as "to command," but when followed with a command clause (which D'Ooge calls an object clause, I take it) it's much more likely to mean "order." Context, of course, will limit the meaning.

Ah, you are probably right. Context will most likely be Caesar commanding, not ruling.

[Andrus]

Thanks Bellum and Chris for your help and explanations.

The problem with these small phrases from the exercises is that is very hard to see the context. Of course having just studied the lesson is easier to me to know what is expected as an answer. Also, if I remember it right, this phrase is a reference to the book I of “De bello galloâ€￾.

I also see that I probably should pay more attention to my English

Once more my thanks

Andrus