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Jerusalem

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Jerusalem

Postby bacon » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:05 am

'ΙεÏ￾οσολυμα, τα or η, as listed in the BBG lexicon.
Is this saying that the word is feminine when singular and neuter when plural? If so what would the plural of Jerusalem mean?
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Postby Bert » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:55 am

ἹεÏ￾οσόλυμα is neuter plural but the translation is singular. I am not sure why this city name is plural. Maybe someone know of other examples where a city name is plural.
Why Mounce says that this word is indeclinable I don't know. It does decline. Matthew 4:25 has the genitive. Luke 23:7 has the dative form.
I assume that the reason he gives both the feminine and the neuter article is because in Matthew 2:3 ἹεÏ￾οσόλυμα is modified by the fem. sg. adjective πᾶσα.
Thayer writes in his lexicon that it is extremely doubtful that this is actually a fem. noun but that; "the unusual coupling of the fem πᾶσα with the neut. plur. ἹεÏ￾οσόλυμα is easily explained by the supposition that the appellative idea ἡ πόλις was in the writer's mind"

There is a fem. word with the same meaning. It is ἹεÏ￾ουσαλήμ.
This word is indeclinable.
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Postby annis » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:14 am

Bert wrote: Maybe someone know of other examples where a city name is plural.


Lots of Greek city names are grammatically plural, e.g., Θῆβαι, Thebes; Ἀθῆναι, Athens. So this isn't unusual for Greek.
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τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby ThomasGR » Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:42 am

Two forms for this city's name exist:

Η ΙεÏ￾ουσαλήμ -fem. singular, no plural form exists
Τα ΙεÏ￾οσόλυμα -neutral, plural, no singular form exists

Jerusalem comes from Η ΙεÏ￾ουσαλήμ.

There are suspicions that the first form was the original translation from Hebrew, and the second one was made later according to the name of Athens, which existed only in plural form. The correct name should be Η ΙεÏ￾ουσαλήμ.
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Postby Bert » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:49 am

ThomasGR wrote:Two forms for this city's name exist:

ἡ ΙεÏ￾ουσαλήμ -fem. singular, no plural form exists
Τα ἱεÏ￾οσόλυμα -neutral, plural, no singular form exists


Mounce is saying that three forms exist.
Η ΙεÏ￾ουσαλήμ -fem. singular
Τα ΙεÏ￾οσόλυμα -neuter plural
ἡ ἹεÏ￾οσόλυμα -He calls this also fem. singular.
Thayer says it is extremely unlikely that this is a legitimate form.
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Postby ThomasGR » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:07 pm

Η ΙεÏ￾οσόλυμα sounds to me awkward.
Is it mentioned in the bible or gospels and in what time period is it used?
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Postby Bert » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:44 pm

ThomasGR wrote:Η ΙεÏ￾οσόλυμα sounds to me awkward.
Is it mentioned in the bible or gospels and in what time period is it used?

It sounds awkward to me as well.
In Matthew 2:3 ἸεÏ￾οσόλυμα is modified by a fem. sg noun.
In Matthew 3:5 ἸεÏ￾οσόλυμα takes a singular verb. (That is not all that surprising seeing that it is neuter but most other places it has a plural noun.)
I think that those instances are the basis for taking ἸεÏ￾οσόλυμα as fem. singular.
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Postby Beatus Pistor » Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:40 pm

Jerusalem(Hebrew: Yerushalaim) in Hebrew has an ending like a "dual".
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Postby IreneY » Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:20 pm

Bert wrote:
ThomasGR wrote:Η ΙεÏ￾οσόλυμα sounds to me awkward.
Is it mentioned in the bible or gospels and in what time period is it used?

It sounds awkward to me as well.
In Matthew 2:3 ἸεÏ￾οσόλυμα is modified by a fem. sg noun.
In Matthew 3:5 ἸεÏ￾οσόλυμα takes a singular verb. (That is not all that surprising seeing that it is neuter but most other places it has a plural noun.)
I think that those instances are the basis for taking ἸεÏ￾οσόλυμα as fem. singular.


I am much more inclined to believing these instances to be some sort of misatke (as i.e. thinking ΙεÏ￾ουσαλήμ but writting ΙεÏ￾οσόλυμα) than believing ther IS such a form (Ierosolyma fem sing)
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