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Middle?

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Middle?

Postby auctor » Fri May 09, 2003 11:17 am

I've been doing my "homework" this morning and all was going swimmingly until I checked the answer to this translation...<br /><br />We would shout and stop the slaves conversing.<br /><br />The answer book gives e)pauo/meqa for "stop", I had quite happily put e)pauomen<br /><br />In simple words the middle voice is suggested. Why? We (being nominative) act on the slaves in stopping. I believe the middle is when you act on yourself.<br /><br /><br />I also used kalos to translate "good", the book suggests crhstos or a)gaqos<br /><br />Young men used to be good, and obey<br /><br />There must be a subtle difference somewhere.<br /><br />Any elucidation appreciated.<br /><br />Paul
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Re:Middle?

Postby vinobrien » Fri May 09, 2003 3:43 pm

The answer book has given an imperfect middle/passive. The middle also has the sense of "for our own purposes" so I suppose that is their reason. What book are you using?<br /><br />Greek is a language of endless subtlety of expression, or so some texts would have you believe. I'm not so sure that Johnny Hellenikos really used the language to that degree - if you look in Liddle & Scott (the last refuge of the charlatan - and me) you will see that all the possible words for good have similar usages and different usages, so I'm not sure how you make the distinction in Greek prose composition, but kalos seems to be all purpose good, a)gaqos is more toward nobility or beauty and crhstos often seems to be about money.<br /><br />This raises a bigger question. Sorry. Greek, like any language, evolved and meanings change and prose composition in an historic lanquage needs to be "in imitation of" someone to make any lkind of sense. Greek particularly has a huge vocabulary because of its history and development and meanings of words are not constant (Messrs. Liddle and Scott are very useful here). <br /><br />The awful "Captain Corelli's Mandolin" has a character called Bunny Warren who has learnt classical Greek, is parachuted into Kephalonia and introduces himself to the natives with words rendered as something to the effect of "Ic Bunnios ycleped am". Possibly the only good bit in the book, by the way.<br /><br />And, for example, there is the speculation (in fact, an industry) in discriminations between words in the New Testament which tend to mean the same thing. This sheds little light on the meaning of the text but a lot on the commentators.<br /><br />I think I'm trying to say there is no one translation into Greek - don't worry if you got it wrong, you also got it right (as long as you got the right endings). <br />
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Re:Middle?

Postby auctor » Fri May 09, 2003 4:06 pm

Thanks for your explanation and encouragement. Yes I did have the same endings for the translation, just used 'kalos".<br />I'm still perturbed about the first query though...<br />Why have they (Reading Greek is the text book, answers by the OU) gone for the middle voice?<br />The verb 'stop' is done by 'we' on 'slaves conversing', surely that is a normal active. I understand that the middle has a sort of self-beneficial meaning but there doesn't seem to be one here.<br /><br />In fact I've just looked in the Vocab at the back of Reading Greek Grammar Vocab & Exercises and under "pauw" it says...<br /> stop X (acc) doing Y (acc part.)<br /><br />under "pauomai" it says<br /> stop (+ part.)<br /><br />hmmm maybe I'm missing something but the active looks much more suitable.<br /><br />BTW the point of the exercises was getting to grips with the imperfect<br /><br />cheers then,<br />Paul<br />
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Re:Middle?

Postby vinobrien » Fri May 09, 2003 4:22 pm

Yes. I would have used an active of pauw + accusative + participle agreeing with it.<br /><br />Maybe someone (like your tutor?) could shed some light on this one.<br /><br />Vincent.
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Re:Middle?

Postby Jeff Tirey » Fri May 09, 2003 7:13 pm

Hey Auctor:<br /><br />I think the key issue is slaves - which are owned. Therefore they are acting upon their own objects and for their own interest.<br /><br />check out Goodwin's Greek Grammar page 305 of the PDF file. He outlines some nice rules for the middle. North and Hillard also has a nice lesson on page 14.<br /><br />anyone else have a take on this?<br /><br />jeff<br />
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Re:Middle?

Postby auctor » Sat May 10, 2003 5:06 pm

I have spoken to the OU course tutor about this point and he says that the answer book is wrong and the verb "stop" should be active & imperfect! That is how I had figured it to be in the first place.<br /><br />We would shout and stop the slaves conversing.<br /><br /><br />ebowmen kai touj doulouj dialogomenouj epauomen<br /><br /><br />I can't find the breathing marks for this SPIonic font!<br />Thanks for all the help,<br /><br />Paul
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Re:Middle?

Postby annis » Sat May 10, 2003 10:17 pm

[quote author=auctor link=board=2;threadid=103;start=0#444 date=1052586386]<br />I have spoken to the OU course tutor about this point and he says that the answer book is wrong and the verb "stop" should be active & imperfect! That is how I had figured it to be in the first place.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Whew! I was worried about this. I had a strong feeling the book was wrong myself, but I don't like asserting that too often about my learning materials. :)<br /><br />
<br />I can't find the breathing marks for this SPIonic font!<br />
<br /><br />Open and close parentheses.<br /><br />e)pau/omen = e)pau/omen.<br /><br />a(nda/nw = a(nda/nw<br />
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re:Middle?

Postby auctor » Sat May 10, 2003 10:31 pm

Thank you William for pointing me in the direction of breathing marks, although I think I'll have to crank up the font size a couple of notches... the default is fairly tiny innit?<br />It is also a bit worrying that an answer booklet has "typos" [let's be generous] in it - especially in a remote learning situation. More power to this web-site with its collection of experts and tyros, both in things Greek and computing... there appears to be expert in either field always to hand!<br /><br />All the very best,<br />Paul
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