Textkit Logo

Challenge for Intermediate to Advanced Latinists

This board is a composition workshop, like a writers' workshop: post your work with questions about style or vocabulary, comment on other people's work, post composition challenges on some topic or form, or just dazzle us with your inventive use of galliambics.

Moderator: annis

poposceuntibus? what the hell?

Episcopi mater
3
50%
doceat whiteoctave fefelleuntem
3
50%
 
Total votes : 6

Challenge for Intermediate to Advanced Latinists

Postby benissimus » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:58 am

Translate this passage. It is from a Yale entry test ca 1900. Episcopus, your participation is mandatory.


Before Caesar set out from Rome the Helvetians decided to burn all their villages and abandon their country because they were being hard pressed by the Germans. But as soon as Caesar was informed of this design, he hastened from the city, and after gathering as large an army as possible, pitched his camp near Geneva, in order to prevent the Helvetians from crossing the Rhone into the Roman province. Then the Helvetians sent envoys to Caesar and said, “We desire to journey through the province without causing any injury, and we ask that we may be allowed to do this with your good will.”

Heluetii, -orum
Rhodanus, -i
Germani, -orum
Genaua, -ae
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Postby Episcopus » Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:45 pm

Benissimus ret[e]tulit Caesare non iam Roma profecto Helvetios a Germanis oppressos omnes suos incendere vicos et patriam relinquere constituisse. Qua de re certiorem factum Caesarem simul properasse ab urbe exercituque quam maximo collecto castra prope Genavam posuisse ut prohiberet quominus Romanam in provinciam Helvetii Rhodanum transirent. Deinde Helvetios ad Caesarem nuntios dimisisse qui dicerent sese sine iniuria per provinciam iter facere velle utque liceret benevolentia eius exsequerentur.

I converted it to oratio obliqua and edited my poorer version I sent to cam. Does this mean I get into Yale now? Does it papa? Can I stop working in these corn fields, skinning deer and other american wild beasts, to become educated at the best university in the world?

ANY ONE ELSE WHO SUCCEEDS WILL GET INTO YAYLE TOO! YAY! 8)

P.S. Glad to see you approve of the perfect active participle, whiteoctave said that he has recently unearthed "poposceuntibus" in a very recently discovered Juvenal manuscript and applauds meine Sprachgefuhl. It was the same one cweb255, no less, tried to get his hands on - I think he sensed the philosopher's participle too.

~E
User avatar
Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Re: Challenge for Intermediate to Advanced Latinists

Postby edonnelly » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:19 am

benissimus wrote:Translate this passage. It is from a Yale entry test ca 1900.

It is interesting to see this. I was just looking at a book by William Collar (Via Latina, an easy latin reader of simple stories very similar to Fabulae Faciles) written in 1897. In the introduction the author laments the poor performance on the Harvard latin entrance exam from the previous few years. A full 1/3 of the students fail, and, since the passing mark is only about 40% or so, another 1/3 "pass" but in reality barely know any latin.

Do you have a link to the whole exam , by any chance?
User avatar
edonnelly
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:47 am
Location: Music City, USA

Postby bellum paxque » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:38 am

(Ecce meus conatus optimus, nullis auxillis consultis)

Ante Caesar Roma profectus est quam, Heluetii, cum multum a Germaniis pressi essent, omnia oppida incendere finesque relinquere constituerunt. Caesare certiore hoc de consilio facto, statim properabat ab urbe, exercitu quam maximo collecto, castra posuit prope Genaum ut Heluetios trans Rhodanum ire Romanam in prouinciam prohiberet. Deinde Heluetii legatos ad Caesarem miserunt qui dicerent se iter per prouinciam nulla Romanis injuria facere velle; se autem ut liceat se haec cum eorum venia facere petere.

-David


Before Caesar set out from Rome the Helvetians decided to burn all their villages and abandon their country because they were being hard pressed by the Germans. But as soon as Caesar was informed of this design, he hastened from the city, and after gathering as large an army as possible, pitched his camp near Geneva, in order to prevent the Helvetians from crossing the Rhone into the Roman province. Then the Helvetians sent envoys to Caesar and said, “We desire to journey through the province without causing any injury, and we ask that we may be allowed to do this with your good will.”

Heluetii, -orum
Rhodanus, -i
Germani, -orum
Genaua, -ae
bellum paxque
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 718
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:29 pm
Location: nanun Hanguge issoyo (in Korea sum)

Postby Episcopus » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:16 pm

I hope the pass mark for the cambridge entrance exam is 40% :shock:

Thankyou for joining in bellum! Is it just me or has your latin become a lot better since you arrived at oxford? I can tell you are studying eagerly.
You would no doubt have been accepted into Yale! A few things -

1. "Ante Caesar Roma profectus est quam" antequam... is fine here, the quam at the end sounds canine. If you want to separate it I would put it either before Roma or profectus.
2. You don't really need the whole "cum...pressi essent" because one use of participles is cause, thus you can have a participle (verbal adjective) agreeing with Helvetii, meaning "because they had been hard pressed..."
3. "Caesare certiore hoc de consilio facto, statim properabat ab urbe, exercitu quam maximo collecto..." This is quite important - this sentence does not require the absolute because it is not gramatically free (absolutus) from the main clause (statim properabat...), because you have in the abl. abs. Caesar who is also the subject of "properabat". (I assume you're using the imperfect meaning 'he began to hasten...') What you currently have written means that Caesar was informed of this plan and some other person hastened from the city. So something like "Caesar de hoc certior factus statim properavit..."

Good awareness of prohibere +inf, I on the other hand just love quominus and "juicy" imperfect subjunctives (as my 3rd year oxonian classcist friend so eloquently put it).


4. licet mihi iter facere OR licet iter faciam
in other words, dative and then infinitive, or subjunctive WITHOUT "ut"

Hope this helps, more people should have a go as you have, keep studying, you should PM Thucydidididices he is there too, doing idem ac tute no doubt!

(edonnelly - I do not have any yale tests but am very eager to see the standard back then, if any one has them tell the bishôp!)

~E
User avatar
Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Postby Kasper » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:02 am

I'll take a stab at Yale:

Ante Caesare Roma egrediente Helvetii omnia oppida incendere patriamque relinquere constituere a Germanis pressi. quam primum tamen Caesar de hoc consilio certior factus exque urbe contentus quam maximo exercitu collecto castra apud Genevam posuit ut Helvetios Rhodanum transire provinciamque Romanam ingredi prohibuat. Itaque Helvetii legatos Caesari missi dixerunt: “Itinerem per provincias sine iniuria vobis facere volumus, itaque rogamus num tua cum sponte hoc facere nobis liceat.”
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:01 am
Location: Melbourne

Postby bellum paxque » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:48 am

Thankyou for joining in bellum! Is it just me or has your latin become a lot better since you arrived at oxford? I can tell you are studying eagerly.
You would no doubt have been accepted into Yale!


Thanks! I never did proses before coming here - so that has helped a good bit. If I hadn't improved at least marginally, I would probably have suffered a crisis of confidence- with the amount of time I've been putting in Latin recently.

1. "Ante Caesar Roma profectus est quam" antequam... is fine here, the quam at the end sounds canine. If you want to separate it I would put it either before Roma or profectus.


You're probably right about the poor use of tmesis here. I think I mainly threw it in because I had a lot of trouble with the construction when I first encountered it in M&F. Once known, it has haunted my usage (in revenge, I think, for the early confusioon).

2. You don't really need the whole "cum...pressi essent" because one use of participles is cause, thus you can have a participle (verbal adjective) agreeing with Helvetii, meaning "because they had been hard pressed..."


Yes, good point. I hope that, had I revised the passage (I was in a bit of a hurry) I would have trimmed it down with participles and such. Still, who can resist a tasty cum even when superfluous? It's rather like as in English, I think: "as you are a dolt, I despise you" - which can express, simultaneously, both temporal (=when) and causal (=since) contempt. Of course, it can't quite get the concessive sense, alas!

3. "Caesare certiore hoc de consilio facto, statim properabat ab urbe, exercitu quam maximo collecto..." This is quite important - this sentence does not require the absolute because it is not gramatically free (absolutus) from the main clause (statim properabat...), because you have in the abl. abs. Caesar who is also the subject of "properabat". (I assume you're using the imperfect meaning 'he began to hasten...') What you currently have written means that Caesar was informed of this plan and some other person hastened from the city. So something like "Caesar de hoc certior factus statim properavit..."


Yikes! I hang my head in shame. Quite serious indeed.

Good awareness of prohibere +inf, I on the other hand just love quominus and "juicy" imperfect subjunctives (as my 3rd year oxonian classcist friend so eloquently put it).


I noticed your
quominus
after I posted my translation and wondered. Of course, Latin usage is pretty flexible, at least much more flexible than textbooks suggest, and I applaud your slight license.

4. licet mihi iter facere OR licet iter faciam
in other words, dative and then infinitive, or subjunctive WITHOUT "ut"


I've never been very comfortable with inconiunctis subjunctivis but I really ought to try volebam id tecum facerem and other such judicious expressions of style.

Hope this helps, more people should have a go as you have, keep studying, you should PM Thucydidididices he is there too, doing idem ac tute no doubt!


Great help and especial thanks for the reminder about ablative absolutes. de quibus vero certior factus eos per aevum memoria diligentissima tenebo. Thucydides has probably already left - without a response to my PM, I ought to note - but we must have been in a lecture or two together. It's a bit odd to think of.

David
bellum paxque
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 718
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:29 pm
Location: nanun Hanguge issoyo (in Korea sum)

Postby edonnelly » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:39 pm

Episcopus wrote:I do not have any yale tests but am very eager to see the standard back then, if any one has them tell the bishôp!


I found this in the back of a book on Google:

Specimen College Entrance Examinations in Latin Prose Composition It doesn't say anything about how they are graded, but they have many colleges, including Yale, represented (c. 1897)
User avatar
edonnelly
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:47 am
Location: Music City, USA

Postby decurion » Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:54 pm

hi, first time poster here; just wanted to compose:

priusquam Caesar Roma profectus est, Helvetii a Germaniis pressi decrevere cunctos vicos incendere suasque terras relinquere. at simulac Caesar de hoc consilio certior factus est, urbe festinavit, atque collecto quam maximo exercitu castra prope Genavam posuit, quin Helvetii in provinciam Romanam Rhenum transirent, ut prohiberet. exinde Helvetii legatos ad Caesarem misere, dixereque, se sine iniuria facienda per provinciam iter facere cupere, rogareque sibi licere hoc facere bona cum fide.


Before Caesar set out from Rome the Helvetians decided to burn all their villages and abandon their country because they were being hard pressed by the Germans. But as soon as Caesar was informed of this design, he hastened from the city, and after gathering as large an army as possible, pitched his camp near Geneva, in order to prevent the Helvetians from crossing the Rhone into the Roman province. Then the Helvetians sent envoys to Caesar and said, �We desire to journey through the province without causing any injury, and we ask that we may be allowed to do this with your good will.?
User avatar
decurion
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:41 pm

Re: Challenge for Intermediate to Advanced Latinists

Postby Skylax » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:03 pm

benissimus wrote:Before Caesar set out from Rome the Helvetians decided to burn all their villages and abandon their country because they were being hard pressed by the Germans. But as soon as Caesar was informed of this design, he hastened from the city, and after gathering as large an army as possible, pitched his camp near Geneva, in order to prevent the Helvetians from crossing the Rhone into the Roman province. Then the Helvetians sent envoys to Caesar and said, �We desire to journey through the province without causing any injury, and we ask that we may be allowed to do this with your good will.�

Heluetii, -orum
Rhodanus, -i
Germani, -orum
Genaua, -ae

Antequam Caesar Roma profectus est, Helvetii statuerunt omnibus vicis incensis suos fines relinquere propterea quod a Germanis opprimebantur. At Caesar ubi primum de eo consilio certior factus est ab Urbe abire maturavit ac (forgotten at first, added later) :)quam maximo exercitu coacto castra ad Genavam collocavit ut Helvetios impediret ne Rhodanum in provinciam Romanam transirent. Tum Helvetii legatos ad Caesarem miserunt qui dicerent : "Cupimus per provinciam sine ulla iniuria iter facere. Petimus porro ut te volente id facere possimus."
User avatar
Skylax
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 8:18 am
Location: Belgium

Postby Episcopus » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:39 pm

Hats off to Skylax: optimum lectu - I should have thought of Caesar's preference shown to absolutes re:"omnibus vicis incensis"
phpbb
User avatar
Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Re: Challenge for Intermediate to Advanced Latinists

Postby Kasper » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:21 am

Skylax wrote:At Caesar ubi primum de eo consilio certior factus est ab Urbe abire maturavit ac quam maximo exercitu coacto castra ad Genavam collocavit ...


These are a lot of indicative verbs in a row. I thought latin required the use of participles in such situations?

This is not criticism, just a question for my own benefit.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:01 am
Location: Melbourne


Return to Composition Board

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 10 guests