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Asking question about exercise 211

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Asking question about exercise 211

Postby Andrus » Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:38 pm

Saluete,

After feeling lost with the amount of vocabulary when reached the 3th declination I decided to re do all exercises of the book from the beginning.

I’m glad I had decided that because I could see that I have learned well the concepts given in previous lessons and also found some details that I had overlooked the first time I study that lessons.

I also had improved my reading skill, being more careful with every word case. So when I was re doing the exercise 211, on page 103 of pdf, I notice something that had pass on first time:

I.6- Nōnne Sextus ab oppidānīs frūmentum postulāuit?...

First time I read this I didn’t notice the “ab” and thought that “oppidānīs” was in Dative case, as an indirect object, so my first translation was:

Didn’t Sextus demanded grain to the townsmen?

But being “oppidānīs” in Ablative case then I think it is an Ablative of separation and the correct translation is:

Didn’t Sextus demanded grain from the townsmen?

That is also in agreement with the key, so my first question is:

Am I correct assuming that it is an Ablative of separation? (I usually can reach the meaning of the text, but very often can’t define which type of Ablative it is)

Second question, would also be possible to write:

Nōnne Sextus oppidānīs frūmentum postulāuit?

Using Dative case for “oppidānīs” and meaning:

“Didn’t Sextus demanded grain to the townsmen?”

or the postulō verb always take an Ablative?

Best regards,

Andrus
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Postby Kasper » Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:49 am

I don't quite see how you can demand "to" someone.

Anyway, "ab" means "off/away from" or something along those lines and always takes the ablative case. I suppose with the use of 'ab' you could always say it's an ablative of separation...
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Asking question about exercise 211

Postby bellum paxque » Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:40 am

David Andrum salvere iubet*

Andrus wrote:Am I correct assuming that it is an Ablative of separation? (I usually can reach the meaning of the text, but very often can’t define which type of Ablative it is)


The problem with the ablative case - which you will quickly notice as you continue in your study of Latin - is that the labels which we conveniently produce are limited and cannot encompass the subtle differences that sometimes develop between uses. Some verbs take the ablative where we might expect objects - utor, fungor, fructor, for instance. Should we say this the ablative of use? Verbs of memory often take the genitive - memini, obliviscor, recordor, etc. Ought this to be called the genitive of memory?

That being said, though, the use to which you refer is probably associated with the ablative of separation. You will have to learn the usage with the associated verb, for instance. Peto, like postulo, takes an accusative of object requested and "ab + ablative" for the person requested from. Posco, though, if I remember correctly, takes a double accusative.

But, as you read more Latin, you will discover that there are often multiple options! Consider the expression opus est, meaning, "there is need of." In my Cassell's dictionary - by no means the most extensive dictionary - here are the possible constructions:

1) with ablative of the thing needed: opus est auctoritate tua (there is need of your influence)
sometimes with neuter ablative of perfect participle: maturato opus est (there is need of haste, from maturo
2) with genitive: quanti argenti opus fuit (there was need of such a great sum of silver)
3) with accusative (Plautus, comedy, thus not a "classical" usage, probably
4) with nominative: dux nobis, et auctor opus est (we need someone to lead and to make things happen)
5) with infinitive; with passive infinitive; with accusative and infinitive
6) with ut and the subjunctive (Plautus again, thus probably not classical)

You can see how textbooks often simplify the complexities involved! Never fear, though. You don't have to memorize all of these options. The trick is to gain enough Latin to be able to read with a decent amount of proficiency. By that point, you can pick up the usage yourself, just by reading.

Andrus wrote:Second question, would also be possible to write:
Nōnne Sextus oppidānīs frūmentum postulāuit?
Using Dative case for “oppidānīs” and meaning:
“Didn’t Sextus demanded grain to the townsmen?”
or the postulō verb always take an Ablative?
Best regards,
Andrus


You could probably use a dative here, but beware of the similarity in form between ablative and dative. I might call this a dative of interest, but it might be more common to use pro with the ablative case.

Regards,

David

*a form of greeting, literally, "David bids Andrus to be well." thanks to Lucus Eques (gratias luco) for this expression
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Postby Andrus » Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:58 am

Saluete Bellum Paxque et Kasper,

Thanks for your replays.

Kasper wrote:I don't quite see how you can demand "to" someone.


It is something that depends on each language I guess. In Portuguese you would say I demand something to person(s) as I make a demand of something to that person(s). But in fact that doesn’t sound good English so probably is not use in English. It is more or less like the Fauēre verbe in Latin that doesn’t take a direct object but in Portuguese and in English it would take.

Bellum Paxque I usually don’t mind much the kind of Ablative it is used if I can understand well the sentence, but as here I was expecting a Dative and found an Ablative I tried to reasoned why, and the only reason I could find was that it is an Ablative of separation.

If the postulō verb always uses some kind of Ablative then I will have to memorize that fact (when trying to write Latin), if it can also use the Dative then the sentence would be stressing the fact that Sextus was demand the grain of the oppidānī (separating it from them) and not just making a demand of grain to the oppidānī. I hope this makes some sense, as it is hard to me being juggling three languages at the same time :D

On a side question how would I make your name in accusative case?

If I want to use the same greeting you did, would be this right:

Andrus Bellum Pacemque saluēre iubet.

Valēte

Andrus

P.S- Last question, would Valēte be a equivalent of best regards?
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Postby bellum paxque » Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:19 pm

On a side question how would I make your name in accusative case?
If I want to use the same greeting you did, would be this right:
Andrus Bellum Pacemque saluēre iubet.


Yes, I think that is right - you treat the names exactly as if they were normal words but for the capital letters. Of course, you're welcome to use the undeclinable name David if you like - Andrus David salvere iubet.

P.S- Last question, would Valēte be a equivalent of best regards?


Valēte is best translated as "farewell," I think, but it can substitute for a variety of expressions used in parting. (Cf. Catullus' poem to his deceased brother, which includes the expression, "Ave atque vale.") Those with more Latinity can offer other suggestions.

Pax (sed non bellum) tecum,

bellum paxque, cui nomen David quoque est
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Postby Andrus » Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:25 am

Gratias tibi agō Bellum Pax

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Postby Seneca » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:14 am

S.v.b.e.e.v.

This will be a little off topic question Andrus, but I see you are using proper ortography for long syllables. Do you know how to do it in MS Word? Does it require a special font?
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Postby Andrus » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:26 am

Saluē Seneca,

It doesn’t need a special font.

Go to Insert – Symbol. Choose Latin Extende-A as subset (right top corner) and you will see the Latin vowels with macrons among other special letters. So you would only have to choose the right one and make insert.

You also have the choice to make a shortcut and that was what I did, so I don’t have to make the previous proceeding every time I want to type a long vowel. I made Alt+1 to Alt+5 to lower case long vowels and Alt+6 to Alt+0 for the upper case long vowels.

If you use a different MS Word version this command can be a little different but I’m sure it can also be done and 99% sure that the way goes through Insert – Symbol.

Hope this helps,

Andrus
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Postby Seneca » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:49 pm

Thanks very much, it worked exactly the way you described.
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Postby Andrus » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:59 am

Saluē Seneca,

Laetus sum auxilium dare potuī

For the case that I have writed wrong in Latin, here it goes in English:

Glad I could help :lol:

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Postby Andrus » Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:07 pm

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