Casa, -ae

by **Keesa** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:15 pm

I have a question (another one!). Why did the Special Vocabulary section of Latin for Beginners start putting the -ae after the nouns? The first couple of Special Vocabularies didn't have this-is there something important I should know here, or is he just giving the plural (dat. sing, gen. sing) ending of the noun because he feels like it? Keesa

by **Milito** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:22 pm

He's showing you the way the word will appear in the dictionary. All nouns appear in a dictionary in their nominative singular form, followed by their genitive singular ending. Adjectives will appear in their masculine nominative singular, followed by feminine nominative singular and neuter nominative singular endings, and verbs show up in their 4 principle parts. The idea is that with this info, you have all that you need

to decline your nouns/adjectives and conjugate your verbs. I'd suspect that you've now started to get into other noun declensions (or will shortly) so it's important that you know what you're dealing with! Technically, "casa" alone could be either 1st declension nom sing, or 2nd declension neuter nom/acc plural! Seeing it as casa, -ae tells you that it's a 1st declension, so you know what else to do with it. Kilmeny

by **Episcopus** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:35 pm

[quote author=Keesa link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#3963 date=1060953356] he just giving the plural (dat. sing, gen. sing) ending of the noun because he feels like it? Keesa [/quote] If referring to Him by means of a pronoun, please capitalize the first letter thankyou. Also remember, although sometimes it may seem that the ,ae be the nominative plural (sometimes the same i.e NP casae, GS casae) it is always the ending of the Genitive singular which determines exactly which type of noun it is.

Website · by **benissimus** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:37 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#3965 date=1060953756] Technically, "casa" alone could be either 1st declension nom sing, or 2nd declension neuter nom/acc plural! Kilmeny [/quote] It could also be 3rd declension

Just imagine... casa, casis or cas, casis (neuter). Evil...

by **Milito** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:11 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#3982 date=1060965437] It could also be 3rd declension

Just imagine... casa, casis or cus, cusis (neuter). Evil... [/quote] A point! A very good point! All of which means that that second ending, the genitive singular, is provided to keep you sane......... Kilmeny

by **Episcopus** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:48 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#3982 date=1060965437] It could also be 3rd declension

Just imagine... casa, casis or cas, casis (neuter). Evil... [/quote] id est maxime malum!! >:(

by **Lumen_et_umbra** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:15 pm

As far as I am aware, the third declension can only be found ending with the following in the nominative singular: -e:s Nube:s -is Canis -i:s Vi:s -o: Ciciero: -a:s Volupta:s -u:s Virtu:s -us Scelus -e Mare -ar Exemplar -or Auctor -al Animal -e:x Re:x -bs Urbs -ox Nox -rx Arx -rs Ars -er Imber

Website · by **benissimus** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:22 pm

There are more... id est: lumen, carmen, nomen caput os, bos consul pax I am sure there are more than that.

by **Episcopus** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:31 pm

He said animal

ONLY?! us, ir, er does be enough for me!

Website · by **benissimus** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:38 pm

Curses! I had a long list until I ended up having to cancel them all out

edit: nevermind, I found some new words

by **Milito** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:09 pm

To quote Bennett (Sorry, Episcopus!) "Nouns of the third declension end in -a, -e, -i, -o, -y, -c, -l, -n, -r, -s, -t. The third declension includes several distinct classes of Stems - I. Pure consonant stems II. -i stems III. Consonant stems which have partially adapted themselves to the inflection of -i stems IV. A very few stems ending in a long vowel or a dipthong V. Irregular nouns." He includes -x as the -s type, actually, calling it a gumming-together of the -cs or the -gs sound. Only he uses much more technical terms for it.... and goes on with examples for about 11 pages..... Kilmeny

by **Lumen_et_umbra** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:21 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#4014 date=1060978970] There are more... id est: lumen, carmen, nomen caput os, bos consul I am sure there are more than that. [/quote] Crap! I knew I had forgotten some... Oh well.

by **Keesa** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 12:17 am

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#3985 date=1060971063] A point! A very good point! All of which means that that second ending, the genitive singular, is provided to keep you sane......... Kilmeny [/quote] I'm always open to anything to help keep me sane! I need all the help I can get... Episcopus, I will not capitalize Dr. D'Ooge's personal pronouns. I told you, I'll respect him, but I won't worship him...Dr. D'Ooge is not the one who wrote "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." id est maxime malum!! Does this mean, "He (it) is very evil!"? Keesa

by **mariek** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:59 am

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#4039 date=1060981763] To quote Bennett (Sorry, Episcopus!) "Nouns of the third declension end in -a, -e, -i, -o, -y, -c, -l, -n, -r, -s, -t. The third declension includes several distinct classes of Stems - I. Pure consonant stems II. -i stems III. Consonant stems which have partially adapted themselves to the inflection of -i stems IV. A very few stems ending in a long vowel or a dipthong V. Irregular nouns." He includes -x as the -s type, actually, calling it a gumming-together of the -cs or the -gs sound. Only he uses much more technical terms for it.... and goes on with examples for about 11 pages..... [/quote] You always have useful information like this. I'm filing this away in my grammar notes for future reference when I get to 3rd decl nouns. I guess I should add Benett's New Latin Grammar to my Amazon Wish List...

by **Skylax** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:27 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#4080 date=1061017161] I guess I should add Benett's New Latin Grammar to my Amazon Wish List... [/quote] ... or download it from TEXTKIT.com !

by **Skylax** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:37 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#4039 date=1060981763] To quote Bennett "Nouns of the third declension end in -a, -e, -i, -o, -y, -c, -l, -n, -r, -s, -t. The third declension includes several distinct classes of Stems - [/quote] I don't understand fully what Bennett means. Later edit : Bennett has the nominative singular in mind. If he speaks about nominative singular, you find indeed -a (poema etc., words that are Greek), but nor -c neither -t. I forgot lac "milk" and caput "head", but there are no other such words, one can't speak about words ending in -c or in -t.Later later : and the -y is for MOLY an single word only found in the (Greek) story of Circe. Thank you, Alundis ! If he speaks about stems, you find -c (voc-is) and -t (equit-is) but nor -a (the stem of poema is poemat- neither truly -o (caro is a form restricted to the nom sing, elsewhere the stem is carn- and the poor lonesome name of Dido is an horrible Greek name of which the stem ended in a "yod", the genitive DIDUS being explained by an evolution in Greek (didoy-os > didoos > didous). There is no intrinsic difficulty with the 3rd declension. What complicates the matter is that the learner has always to learn first the nominative singular. But, knowing only that, you can't find back the rest of the declension, because the endings add to the stem of the word, which seldom appears properly in the nominative singular. The stem of rex is reg-... Why ? It is because a) there are two endings used for the nominative singular : -s or [nothing]; b) Both endings can modify the stem : 1) the collision of the ending -s with a stem in consonant generates modifications : for example, -d and -t disappear before -s (calamitat-s > calamitas; cs and gs are written "x" 2) a stem left alone without ending may change : a stem ending in -n may loose the -n : stem calon- "soldier's servant", nominative sing calo genitive sing calonis Now, the original stem isn't sometimes seen anymore nor in the nominative sing neither in the genitive singular : take the stem *homon- "human being". In the nom sing, it looses the -n, thus homo. But, when you add an ending to *homon-, it becames homin- because the short -o- is no more at the end of the word, but inside the word (a well known phonetic phaenomenon). So genitive sing hominis. Conclusion : often, the nominative singular is of NO HELP to build the rest of the declension. What matters is the form of the stem you find in the genitive singular. So don't learn only that "time" is "TEMPVS" : learn carefully TEMPVS, TEMPORIS (stem TEMPOR-). Or put it on your cheat sheet. VALETE

by **Milito** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:35 pm

I think tha Bennett is sort of over-generalizing. Also, he appears to have revised his comments in his later grammars - his "NEW Latin Grammar includes the "x" stem. A sample of his logic is as follows: "I. Consonant-Stems. In these the stem appears in its unaltered form in all the oblique cases, so that the actual case-endings my be clearly recognised. Consonant-Stems fall into several natural subdivisions, according as the stem ends in a Mute, Liquid, Nasal or Spirant. Mute stems may end, - a. In a Lapial (p); as, pincep -s b. In a Gutteral (g or c); as, remex (remeg -s); dux (duc -s) c. In a Dental (d or t); as, lapis (lapid -s); miles (milet -s)" He does not give examples of every possible ending. It seems that his ending-list is a combination of nominative singular and stem endings; for instance, he includes "honor; honoris" in his list of "s" endings, because it originally did end in "s" ("honos") as occasionally shows up in some poetry. In any event, I think he may be trying to categorize nicely nouns that don't like being pigeon-holed.... Kilmeny

Website · by **benissimus** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:38 am

Forgot pax, coquax, loquax. There is also feles, which is a short E+s

by **Lumen_et_umbra** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:42 am

[quote author=Lumen_et_umbra link=board=3;threadid=477;start=15#4153 date=1061080163] Given recent, and appropriate criticisms from others, I have revised my list of endings found in the third declension. -e:s Nube:s (Gen pl in Nubium) -is Canis (Note that Canis defies the -ium stem rules and does not end in -ium in the genitive plural) -i:s Vi:s -o: Ciciero: -a:s Volupta:s -u:s Virtu:s -us Scelus -e Mare (Note: Mare ends in with -i in the singular ablative because of rules regarding certain neuter nouns in the third declension. Also, it ends with Marium in Gen Pl) -ar Exemplar (See 'Mare' above) -or Auctor -al Animal (See 'Mare' above, Gen pl Animalium) -e:x Re:x -bs Urbs (Gen Pl Urbium) -ox Nox (Gen Pl Noctium) -rx Arx (Gen Pl Arcium) -rs Ars (Gen Pl Artium) -er Imber -ux Dux (Gen Pl Ducium) -en Lumen (how freaking stupid am I?! It is in my name!) -as As, assis (Gen Pl Assium) -os Os, ossis (Gen Pl Ossium) -ut Caput -ul Consul -a:x Pax - Thanks, Benissimus -es Feles (Gen Pl Felium) - Thanks, again, Benissimus. I really hope that is all of them this time; lest I seem even more of an idiot. P.S. I included a few extra pieces of information for those that haven't yet learned the 3rd declension. (Which things may actually serve as detriments to their resolve.) I haven't explained any of the rules for discerning between a -ium stem noun and a regular -um stem noun, and I have left out some irregularities in the declension of some of these nouns (Namely, the Nom pl '-a' and the Acc pl '-a' of neuter nouns) [/quote]

by **Lumen_et_umbra** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:46 am

I hadn't finished my message-before-last (which I have now deleted) when I accidentally pressed the 'Post' button! ::anger:: >:(

by **Keesa** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:47 am

:-[ Somebody encourage me...am I ever going to get that advanced? I spent the whole day in town taking a test, and didn't even do a single lesson of Latin...and that list is overwhelming! Ouch! Keesa

by **Lumen_et_umbra** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:52 am

Sorry, Keesa. Don't worry, however, it is not nearly as difficult as it may seem now. Sorry, again. Don't be discouraged. ;D

by **Keesa** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:55 am

[quote author=Lumen_et_umbra link=board=3;threadid=477;start=15#4163 date=1061081553] it is not nearly as difficult as it may seem now. [/quote] Thank you. I needed to hear that. Tomorrow I'll get back into Latin with a vengeance...and all my other languages, too! For tonight, I'm just going to be glad that it will come in time. Slainte! Keesa

Website · by **benissimus** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:04 am

Hehe... there is also a short E+x as in Iudex. Perhaps this is the reason why they define third declension by the last letter and not by the whole ending ;o

by **Lumen_et_umbra** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:08 am

It is inefficient and malapropos to define the 3rd declension by its very last letter in the nominative case. They may as well say, "Shove it, you idiot. learn the endings by yourself!" This is, counterintuitively, a good tip

; There are patterns to be recognized, which expedite the learning of the 3rd declension on one's own. Learning it with a prefabricated paradigm, such as the one I have written above, only precludes facile learning and forces one to learn by rote - the most basic and unadvanced form of learning.

by **Alundis** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:31 am

Here's what I got form the Words dictionary. I have no idea what use this list is, but here you go ;p -ha ANTIPASCHA, ANTIPASCHATIS: N 3 2 N \Low Sunday in the Greek rite; -ma ZMEGMA, ZMEGMATIS: N 3 2 N \ointment; cleansing preparation; fine slag from copper melting; -ra SICERA, SICERATIS: N 3 2 N \kind of spiritous intoxicating drink; fermented liquor, strong drink (Souter); -ac LAC, LACTIS: N 3 2 N \milk; milky juice of plants; spat/spawn (of oyster); -ec HALLEC, HALLECIS: N 3 2 N \herrings; a fish sauce; pickle; -ic CARNIC, CARNICIS: N 3 3 C \fodder plant, tree-medick Medicago arborea; wood of this; scrubby snail-clover ( -sc FASC, FASCIS: N 3 1 M \bundles of rods (w/ax) (pl.), carried before the highest magistrates of Rome; -ce DULCE, DULCIS: N 3 4 N \a sweet drink, sweets (pl); -le VICTUALE, VICTUALIS: N 3 4 N \provisions (pl.), victuals, sustenance; -me DEFORME, DEFORMIS: N 3 4 N \disgrace; shameful thing/deed; -ne TRIENNE, TRIENNIS: N 3 4 N \triennial festival (pl.); -pe PRAESEPE, PRAESEPIS: N 3 4 N \crib, manger, stall (cattle/horses feed); brothel; haunt, lodging, home turf; -re TRIMESTRE, TRIMESTRIS: N 3 4 N \crops ripening in 3 months; spring-sown crops; -te TAPPETE, TAPPETIS: N 3 4 N \woolen cloth or rug used as a covering, hanging, carpet, tapestry; -ve DECLIVE, DECLIVIS: N 3 4 N \slope, declivity; surface sloping downwards; (per decline => downwards); -ig BITURIG, BITURIGIS: N 3 1 M \Bituriges (pl.), a people of SW Gaul, Aquitania - in Caesar's "Gallic War"; -rg TERG, TERGORIS: N 3 2 N \back (animal, meat); ridge, raised surface; far side; covering (animal/organ); -bi STIBI, STIBIS: N 3 2 N \antimony; (used in eye-salve and makeup); stibium/sulphuret of antimony (L+S); -hi CYPHI, CYPHIS: N 3 2 N \Egyptian perfuming powder; -li CROTALI, CROTALIIS: N 3 4 N \ear-rings (pl.); ear pendants of several loosely hanging/rattling pearls; -mi STIMMI, STIMMIS: N 3 2 N \antimony; (used in eye-salve and makeup); stibium/sulphuret of antimony (L+S); -ri COMMERCARI, COMMERCARIIS: N 3 1 M \fellow-purchaser; -al VITAL, VITALIS: N 3 4 N \grave clothes (pl.); -el MEL, MELLIS: N 3 2 N \honey; sweetness; darling; -il VIGIL, VIGILIS: N 3 1 M \watchman; -ll PERDUELL, PERDUELLIS: N 3 3 M \national enemy; -ol SOL, SOLIS: N 3 1 M \the sun; -ul PROCONSUL, PROCONSULIS: N 3 1 M \proconsul, governor of a province; -em EMBLEM, EMBLEMATIS: N 3 2 N \inlaid or mosaic work; -hm DIDRACHM, DIDRACHMATIS: N 3 2 N \Greek silver coin, double drachma; (1/3000 talent) (half dollar); -lm DIAPSALM, DIAPSALMIS: N 3 2 N \pause in music; -om GLAUCOM, GLAUCOMIS: N 3 2 N \disease of the eye, cataract; -an TITAN, TITANOS/IS: N 3 9 M \Titan; (one of race of gods/giants proceeding Olympians); -en VOLUMEN, VOLUMINIS: N 3 2 N \book, chapter, fold; -in DELPHIN, DELPHINIS: N 3 1 M \dolphin; ornament shaped like a dolphin; (part of water organ); constellation; -on VISON, VISONTIS: N 3 1 M \bison; wild ox; -rn UNICORN, UNICORNIS: N 3 3 M \unicorn, one-horned horse-like creature; -ao PHARAO, PHARAONIS: N 3 1 M \Pharaoh, title of King of Egypt; -bo UMBO, UMBONIS: N 3 1 M \boss (of a shield); -co SALACO, SALACONIS: N 3 1 M \swaggerer, braggart; -do VICISSITUDO, VICISSITUDINIS: N 3 1 F \change, vicissitude; -eo LEO, LEONIS: N 3 1 M \lion; -fo SIFO, SIFONIS: N 3 1 M \siphon; a fire-engine; -go VORAGO, VORAGINIS: N 3 1 F \deep hole, chasm, watery hollow; -ho SIPHO, SIPHONIS: N 3 1 M \siphon; a fire-engine; -io VOMITIO, VOMITIONIS: N 3 1 F \vomit; vomited matter; act of vomiting; -lo VOLO, VOLONIS: N 3 1 M \volunteers (pl.); (in the Second Punic War); -mo TEMO, TEMONIS: N 3 1 M \pole, beam; tongue of a wagon or chariot; -no TOLLENO, TOLLENONIS: N 3 1 M \machine for raising weights, a crane; -po PEPO, PEPONIS: N 3 1 M \watermelon; (other such/goard); species of large melon (L+S); pumpkin; -ro VERBERO, VERBERONIS: N 3 1 M \scoundrel; -so PISO, PISONIS: N 3 1 M \Piso, Roman cognomen; L. Calpurnius Piso, consul 58 BC; M. Pupius Piso, 61 BC; -to PONTO, PONTONIS: N 3 1 M \large flat boat, barge; punt; pontoon; -uo HELLUO, HELLUONIS: N 3 1 M \glutton, squanderer; -vo ROLVO, ROLVONIS: N 3 1 M \Rolf; -xo COXO, COXONIS: N 3 1 M \hobbling; -yo BOTRYO, BOTRYONIS: N 3 1 M \bunch/cluster of grapes; -ar TORCULAR, TORCULARIS: N 3 4 N \wine/oil press; pressing room, room housing a wine/oil press; oil cellar (L+S); -er VOMER, VOMERIS: N 3 1 M \ploughshare; stylus (for writing with (L+S); (metaphor for penis); -or VULGATOR, VULGATORIS: N 3 1 M \divulger; -tr TRIMETR, TRIMETRIS: N 3 1 M \trimeter; -ur VULTUR, VULTURIS: N 3 1 M \vulture; -yr MARTYR, MARTYRIS: N 3 1 M \martyr; witness; -as VOLUPTAS, VOLUPTATIS: N 3 1 F \pleasure, delight, enjoyment; -bs URBS, URBIS: N 3 3 F \city; City of Rome; -cs ARCS, ARCIS: N 3 3 F \citadel, stronghold; height; the Capitoline hill Rome; defense, refuge; -es XERXES, XERXIS: N 3 3 M \Xerxes; (son of Darius, King of Persia 485-465 BC); (invaded Greece 480 BC); -is VORSIPELLIS, VORSIPELLIS: N 3 3 M \shape-changer, who can metamorphose to different shape; double-dealer (Vulgate); -ls PULS, PULTIS: N 3 3 F \meal, porridge, mush (used in sacrifice and given to sacred chickens); -ms HIEMS, HIEMIS: N 3 1 F \winter, winter time; rainy season; cold, frost; storm, stormy weather; -ns VALENS, VALENTIS: N 3 1 M \Valens; (coemperor 364-378 and brother of Valentinian); (lost at Adrianople); -os SEMISOS, SEMISSIS: N 3 1 M \half an as; half; half of any unit; 6% per annum (1/2% per month); -ps STIRPS, STIRPIS: N 3 3 F \stock, plant; race, lineage; character; -rs SORS, SORTIS: N 3 3 F \lot, fate; oracular response; -ts BUCCONIATS, BUCCONIATIS: N 3 3 F \species of vine in Thurium the fruit of which is picked only after first frost; -us VULNUS, VULNERIS: N 3 2 N \wound; mental/emotional hurt; injury to one's interests; wound of love; -ys PELAMYS, PELAMYDIS: N 3 1 F \young tunafish; -at SOLIDITAT, SOLIDITATIS: N 3 1 F \solidity, freedom from cavities; density/firmness of texture, solidity; -ct LACT, LACTIS: N 3 2 N \milk; milky juice of plants; spat/spawn (of oyster); -ut SINCIPUT, SINCIPITIS: N 3 2 N \half/side of a head (as article of food); the smoked cheek of a pig; (brain); -ax VORAX, VORACIS: N 3 1 M \ravenous; insatiable; devouring; -ex VORTEX, VORTICIS: N 3 1 M \whirlpool, eddy, vortex; crown of the head; peak, top, summit; the pole; -ix VIVIRADIX, VIVIRADICIS: N 3 1 F \cutting with a root, a layer; -lx FALX, FALCIS: N 3 3 F \sickle. scythe; pruning knife; curved blade; hook for tearing down walls; -nx SEPTUNX, SEPTUNCIS: N 3 1 M \seven-twelfths; -ox VOX, VOCIS: N 3 1 F \voice, tone, expression; -rx MERX, MERCIS: N 3 3 F \commodity; merchandise )pl.), goods; -ux TRADUX, TRADUCIS: N 3 1 M \vine-layer; -yx SARDONYX, SARDONYCHOS/IS: N 3 9 C \sardonyx, precious stone; -ly MOLY, MOLYOS/IS: N 3 9 N \plant (white flower and black root) (mythical used by Odysseus against Circe);

by **Lumen_et_umbra** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:37 am

Wow!

My list was depressingly inadequate! Though, still a decent guide to the endings found in the 3rd declension... ::I am trying to salvage some vestige of my dignity:: :-\

by **Episcopus** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 10:49 am

>:( Don't they have a REALLY mad smiley on this site? Ah this will have to suffice >:( This just makes me cry not 'this is easy'.

by **Skylax** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:57 am

[quote author=Alundis link=board=3;threadid=477;start=15#4170 date=1061091116] Here's what I got form the Words dictionary. I have no idea what use this list is, but here you go ;p -ic CARNIC, CARNICIS: N 3 3 C \fodder plant, tree-medick Medicago arborea; wood of this; scrubby snail-clover ( -sc FASC, FASCIS: N 3 1 M \bundles of rods (w/ax) (pl.), carried before the highest magistrates of Rome; -ig BITURIG, BITURIGIS: N 3 1 M \Bituriges (pl.), a people of SW Gaul, Aquitania - in Caesar's "Gallic War"; -rg TERG, TERGORIS: N 3 2 N \back (animal, meat); ridge, raised surface; far side; covering (animal/organ); [/quote] Well, in the words before, the form before the one ending in -is has got no linguistic value. It is neither a stem nor a nominative singular. It is the group of letters that the computer must use to proceed with analysis. The corresponding nominatives are CARNIX (?), FASCIS, BITVRIX (but you find always the plural BITVRIGES), TERGVS (TERGVS, TERGORIS is less frequent than TERGVM, TERGI)

by **Lumen_et_umbra** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:17 pm

Hey! You're right, Skylax. I didn't even bother to read the words in that list. They are predominatly repetitions. Besides, my inadequacy could only be in the summarization of the 3-rd declension nominative endings, not in declining and recognizing them - which really isn't difficult at all.

by **Keesa** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:38 pm

[quote author=Lumen_et_umbra link=board=3;threadid=477;start=15#4202 date=1061126258] Hey! You're right, Skylax. I didn't even bother to read the words in that list. They are predominatly repetitions. Besides, my inadequacy could only be in the summarization of the 3-rd declension nominative endings, not in declining and recognizing them - which really isn't difficult at all.

[/quote] Mostly repetitions? Hurrah! You have just made me very, very happy indeed! Keesa

by **Milito** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:08 pm

[quote author=Keesa link=board=3;threadid=477;start=15#4164 date=1061081709] Thank you. I needed to hear that. Tomorrow I'll get back into Latin with a vengeance...and all my other languages, too! For tonight, I'm just going to be glad that it will come in time. Slainte! Keesa [/quote] Here's a very simple way to look at 3rd declension nouns - they all have the same set of endings, which is how you know they're 3rd declension. And although they do sort of tend to mutate themselves away from their dictionary forms sometimes, you catch on pretty quickly to what they're likely to look like. So this generalization works for them: ENDINGS: Singular Plural Nom (whatever) -es (occasionally -is); -a for neuter Gen -is -um (occasionally -ium) Dat -i -ibus Acc -em -es (occasionally -is); -a for neuter Abl -e; (occasionally -i) -ibus Note that there aren't different endings for the different genders, with the exception of neuter plural nominative and accusative - which just uses exactly the same ending it used in second declension. That's easy, isn't it? Kilmeny

by **Episcopus** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:11 pm

hah that nom singular "whatever" actually helped!!

by **Keesa** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:22 pm

That is easy, Milito! Thank you. The nasty 3rd declension does not seem so frightening now! In due time, I shall properly conquer it. ;D Keesa

by **Lumen_et_umbra** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:59 am

The regular rules for the third declension are: (Note: to recognize a third declension noun, you must look at the genitive singular, not the nominative, because sometimes the nominative sg. of a noun resembles that of a noun of another declension. i.e., scelus (neuter) - sin, wrongdoing, evil) Regular MASCULINE/FEMININE nouns of the 3rd declension Nom (whatever) -es Gen -is -um Dat -i -ibus Acc -em -es Abl -e -ibus e.g. Virtus, Virtutis - Virtue/Bravery/Masculinity Virtus Virtutes Virtutis Virtutum Virtuti Virtutibus Virtutem Virtutes Virtute Virtutibus Regular NEUTER nouns of the 3rd declension Nom -(whatever) -a Gen -is -um Dat -i -ibus Acc (same as the nom.) -(same as nom pl.) Abl -e -ibus Scelus, Sceleris Scelus Scelera Sceleris Scelerum Sceleri Sceleribus Scelus Scelera Scelere Sceleribus -I stem nouns (-ium nouns) of the 3rd declension: There are special 3rd declension nouns, which end with -ium in the genitive plural case. Here are the rules for those: If a feminine or masculine noun has the same number of syllables in the nominative singular as in the genitive singular, the noun is an I-stem noun. Nubes (nom), Nubis(gen) Cloud Nubes Nubes Nubis Nubium Nubi Nubibus Nubem Nubes Nube Nubibus CANIS (dog) and IUVENIS (youth) are two exceptions to this rule. If a feminine or masculine noun ends with -s or -x in the nominative sg. and has two consonants in its stem, it ends with -ium in the gen. plural. Note: you do not often see the stem in the nominative. Arx, Arcis (see the two bolded consonants which comprise the stem?) Arx Arces Arcis Arcium Arci Arcibus Arcem Arces Arce Arcibus However... Rex, Regis - King, Ruler Notice that the stem does not have two consonants! Rex Reges Regis Regum Regi Regibus Regem Reges Rege Regibus NEUTER I-STEM NOUNS Any third declenion neuter noun, ending with -al, -ar, or -e, will have a different ablative singular, accusative singular, nominative pl, and a different accusative pl., and, also, it will have -ium in the gen. pl. Animal, Animalis Animal Animalia Animalis Animalium Animali Animalibus Animal Animalia Animali Animalibus Mare, Maris Mare Maria Maris Marium Mari Maribus Mare Maria Mari Maribus Summarized rules for I-stem nouns of the third declension Masculine and Feminine Nouns Nom (blah) -es Gen -is -ium Dat -i -ibus Acc -em -es Abl -e -ibus Neuter Nouns Nom (-al, -ar, or -e) -ia Gen -is -ium Dat -i -ibus Acc -(same as nom.) -(same as nom. pl.) Abl -i -ibus I hope this helps!

by **Lumen_et_umbra** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:20 am

Note: In my 'little' reference guide above, I left out EVERY macron. Sorry. I just don't have the energy to do it right now.

by **bingley** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:54 am

Just a thought. The genitive is the useful bit which tells us which declension a noun is, so why don't dictionaries and grammars just cut to the chase and put that first, with a note where the nom. sing. is not easily predictable. It's not as if the nom. sing. is any more common than any other case.

by **Lumen_et_umbra** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:02 am

That is a good point. Another thing, which I have wondered, is why dictionaries don't give the present active infinitive of deponent verbs so as to facilitate their being conjugated. (I know that the present active infinitive of a deponent verb is never used, unless one counts the singular present imperative of that verb)

by **Alundis** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:40 am

[quote author=Skylax link=board=3;threadid=477;start=15#4196 date=1061121448] Well, in the words before, the form before the one ending in -is has got no linguistic value. It is neither a stem nor a nominative singular. It is the group of letters that the computer must use to proceed with analysis. The corresponding nominatives are CARNIX (?), FASCIS, BITVRIX (but you find always the plural BITVRIGES), TERGVS (TERGVS, TERGORIS is less frequent than TERGVM, TERGI) [/quote] Thank you for correcting me. I didn't realize the words dictionary was so inaccurate--those are listed as nominative forms.

by **Skylax** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:20 am

I wouldn't speak of inaccuracy. After all, this dictionary isn't intended to a human user. Sometimes, the first form is a nominative (LAC LACTIS) sometimes a stem (it gives also LACT LACTIS, or BITVRIG, BITVRIGIS), sometimes a mere group of letters (TERG). It is a huge and remarkalble work anyway.

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