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Postby edonnelly » Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:42 pm

Kynetus,

We generally save Latin for the "Compostition" and "Agora" boards. Remember, there are many ancient Greek types here who have little or no interest in Latin.

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Postby Kynetus Valesius » Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:38 pm

Edonnelly,

I appreciate your concern. I would say however that if something is written in latin or greek and if there is a someone who can't understand that something, then that someone should assume that that something was not intended for him or her. Having said that, I do wish to follow the rules and certainly don't wish to rub anyone the wrong way. What do the moderators say about where it is legitimate to write in greek or latin? Didn't I see long untranslated Spanish passages just recently in the Academia boards? What's the difference? And what about the two longish letters that recently appeared in Italian? And what of the letters that mix latin, english, german and french appearing in the open board!

I would have thought that historically in the West at least folks learned Latin first and only later Greek. That doesn't seem to be the case here so perhaps I'll have to adjust my assumptions. If the moderators firmly state that latin is only permitted on the composition, open, learn latin, and agora boards, I'd gladly comply. On the other hand, if latin in the open and learn latin boards were restricted, I'd probably leave - not that I'd be missed or anything - it's just what I'd do. Anyway, my friend, let's see what they say.

Best
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Postby annis » Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:37 am

I've split this off to avoid hijacking a theological thread.

Kynetus Valesius wrote:I appreciate your concern. I would say however that if something is written in latin or greek and if there is a someone who can't understand that something, then that someone should assume that that something was not intended for him or her.


That's kind of rude, and is probably better handled via PM.

Having said that, I do wish to follow the rules and certainly don't wish to rub anyone the wrong way. What do the moderators say about where it is legitimate to write in greek or latin?


Well, we don't actually have any formalized set of rules on this matter, though we have discussed it in the past. For the most part, we'd like to avoid extended posts in Latin or Greek in the non-comp or Agora board, because we'd like as many Textkit regulars as possible to be able to take part in discussions. People come to Textkit to learn Latin and Greek, after all, not because they've already mastered them. But we've never fixed this as a rule, it's just a guideline.

And what of the letters that mix latin, english, german and french appearing in the open board!


Well, things are generally even looser in the Open Board. Textkit members are highly polyglott.. polyglottal? polyglottinous? In any case, we have many languages between the regular posters, and a certain freedom there is expected.

I would have thought that historically in the West at least folks learned Latin first and only later Greek. That doesn't seem to be the case here so perhaps I'll have to adjust my assumptions.


That's not at all the case here. Some of the Hellenists may never take up Latin.

If the moderators firmly state that latin is only permitted on the composition, open, learn latin, and agora boards, I'd gladly comply.


Latin is certainly widely permitted, but sudden posts in untranslated Latin, without other context in a discussion that started in English should probably be avoided.
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Postby Kynetus Valesius » Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:55 am

Annis,

It is never my intention to deliberately be rude. If I came off as such, I apologize. As for the Academy, I'll avoid latin posts there in the future if it is going to continue to be an issue. Neverthless, I still don't see why this has become an issue. It was one short post afterall. Furthermore, nisi fallor, I seem to recall a long post of Bardo's containing long passages of untranslated Spanish poetry that no one found worthy of remark. Is the Academy then going to become an English only forum?

As for the open board and the learn latin board, I do strongly believe that latin should be encouraged there. You mention that people come here to learn. That's why I came here; I have by no means mastered latin. At most, I consider myself only an intermediate self-learner. When I write in latin, I am learning. When I read what others have written in whatever language but especially latin, I am learning. Writing and reading are essential to the process of learning. Even abject beginners can benefit by trying to enter into language that technically may be above their skills. That very thing happened to me today as I tried with varied success to penetrate Epi's dense latin prose - but I learned something - I assure you, my friend!

As I said, I am not so dillusional that I think my departure would be lamented by many. But if those two boards (open and learn latin) do not continue to remain open to the latin language I will have consider either leaving or remaining silent.

All disputation put aside, I sincerely bid you good night.

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Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:10 am

It is rude to write posts exclusively in Latin in the open board because you are letting some people access your post and excluding others. In the agora and composition boards this is expected, but the open board is meant to be open to everybody.

I personally do not mind the use of Latin anywhere as long as there is a translation or summary written in a language I do understand (since some of your Latin posts on the open board are quite verbose, I think a summary of a few sentences in English would suffice). I myself practice this : whenever I post something in Greek outside the Greek/agora/composition boards, I offer a translation, and whenver I post something in French I make it clear to the non-francophones what I mean.

A summary would not convey all the subtle points of you Latin post, but it would tell readers the general topic and let them decide if they are interested.

I would like to point out that the agora is practically the same as the open board, aside from the languages used. Any of your posts in 100% Latin would fit perfectly there. Quite frankly, why do you post Latin posts in the open board rather than the agora?

I myself thought all the Spanish poetry was a bit much, knowing only some conversational Spanish, but there was a summary of what the writer was trying to convey in English.

EDIT : I may or may not study Latin in the future, but for now I am strictly a Hellenist. Unless your native language is a Romance language, I believe it is better to study Greek before Latin since its literature is older and had a great influence on the latter. And I personally find Greek literature more interesting than Latin literature, great as they both are.
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Postby Kynetus Valesius » Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:24 pm

My dear glottal greek geek

As for rudeness, it is not something that I intentionally engage in. But there are two parts to becoming offended. The offender and the offendee - It is characteristic of a sage neither to give offense and never take offense, unless of course it is the immortal gods that have been denigrated in which case anger on the part of a sage might be justified. I do not wish to offend but if you insist of being offended I'll just have to shut up - no great loss because the world is big.

You, friend, wrote

Any of your posts in 100% Latin would fit perfectly there. Quite frankly, why do you post Latin posts in the open board rather than the agora?

It seems to me that the open board is where the action is, where the most readers are, and where many discussions are taking place that I would like to participate in. I came to textkit with several objectives in mind - one was to have a space where I could slip between latin and English at will because the Grex is a latin only forum that can become tiring to a beginner compositionist such as myself.

I commented earlier that I thought persons who didn't understand latin posts should just assume that material wasn't intended for them. That suggestion itself was taken as an insult, so I'll rephrase the idea. If you, o GGG, wish to write in the open board in Greek, I as a non greek reader will just move on to something suited to me. If you could do the same, we could move beyond this issue.

A further note, I do not seem to be the only person wishing to have the freedom to write in the latin in forums other than the composition board and the agora. Several persons, one of whom carries some influence here, have written me privately in support of my use latin specifically in the open board. However, a ruling by the moderators in my favor would not satisify me unless I had also been able to win over such well meaniing critics as yourself. I repeat, I do not wish to offend. If by writing in latin in the open forum, I continue to be perceived as an offender. I'll have to go silent sometime soon.

very best regards to one and all.
YR VRY DVTD SVNT
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Postby annis » Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:56 pm

Kynetus Valesius wrote: Neverthless, I still don't see why this has become an issue. It was one short post afterall.


It has become an issue because you asked for moderatorial clarification. You got it. :)

But if those two boards (open and learn latin) do not continue to remain open to the latin language I will have consider either leaving or remaining silent.


Let me repeat, we're not talking about fixed rules, but about guidelines. Textkit is moderated in general with a very light hand, much lighter than you'll find on many web fora. We're not discussing a ban at all here.

In some of your other Latin posts you have given interlinear translations. All I'm suggesting is that it'd be nice when you use Latin in boards populated with non-Latinists to give, if not the interlinear, some brief summary of what you're saying, so as not to lock the non-Latinists out of the conversation.

Let me repeat that this is a guideline, not a fixed rule. Especially in the Open board - that's why it's open - we get displays of linguistical pyrotechnics, and those threads just go their own way.

But as a matter of courtesy, untranslated (or at least unsummarized) Latin or Greek of more than a few words should probably not be used in the Academy. Personally I'd like to see more Latin and Greek in the Academy, especially in the form of quotation of Greek and Latin philosophical writers. But with translations so the non-Gk and non-Latin members interested can follow, too.
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Postby Bardo de Saldo » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:10 pm

"[...] a long post of Bardo's [...]" ~Kynete

Hey, can't you make your case without getting me involved? Do you think that "but Billy also did it" is a good rhetorical device?

As for my lyrical winding:
1. I was quoting classical authors (for the most part), not arguing in Spanish.
2. I offered a synopsis in English (my translation would have done no justice to the poetry).
3. I asked for forgiveness.
4. If someone had requested a translation, I would have done so out of courtesy; something which you, Kynete, haven't bothered to do when asked.
5. Bards get special treatment.
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Postby Kynetus Valesius » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:14 pm

Dear Annis, edonnelly, and glottalgreekgeek,

But as a matter of courtesy, untranslated (or at least unsummarized) Latin or Greek of more than a few words should probably not be used in the Academy.

I have already agreed to refrain from latin postings in the Academy as a courtesy though I still fail to understand why the recent Spanish language postings in the Academy and the Italian language letters in the Open Forum did not raise the same level of concern as my single line comment in the Academy. Be that as it may, I do hereby agree to not philosophize in latin in the Academy. So that's that.

Assuming that no one will ever have a problem with latin postings in the learn latin area, let us now turn to the question of the open board. Annis has stated that in that forum there are no fixed rules. However in that forum I'd not only like the freedom to post in latin but I'd also like to feel that I am not being offfensive. Since the only two people, both of whom I respect for their humanity and learning, that I know of who have voiced concerns are Ed. Donnelly and GGG, I address them directly in the hopes that we can work through this impasse. If you two can just resolve not to be offended, we can move on. Otherwise I'll become silent (hey it's a promise!!) and we can still move on - without judgment or acrimony on either side. But I hope that you will both able kindly grant this concession to me, though, being a loud mouth, I am unworthy to receive it. What do you say guys? For my part, I agree that if I'm initiating a topic, I'll designate it as such in the subject line. That way people uninterested in the latin won't waste their time. If, on the other hand, I am commenting in latin in a pre-established thread and if my comments exceed a sentence or two I'll provide a one sentence English language summary beneath the latin.

Ever humbler than a blade of grass and more tolerant that a mighty oak, I remain sincerely yours, Kynetus Valesius
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Postby Kynetus Valesius » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:43 pm

Dear Bardo and others following this thread

You wrote

Hey, can't you make your case without getting me involved? Do you think that "but Billy also did it" is a good rhetorical device?

Sorry about the misidentification, it must have been someone else who transcribed the the long Spanish poems. I think now I know who it was but won't say the name lest I err again. Nor do I recall whether those poems received appropriate English language commentary as a courtesy.

Of course the Billy did it too arguments fails as an ethical justificaiton for anything. Still, if I were not, as an aspiring sage, incapable of being offended I would think that I'm being picked on unfairly. As it is I am able to regard the whole overblown bru-ha-ha (I take all the blame) as the will of the immortals. Perhaps they are telling me to do something more productive.

Cheers, I mean it, to all :)
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Postby Bardo de Saldo » Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:31 pm

You didn't misidentify anyone, Kynete. Let's sing the mea culpa together! (Give me a fa major.)

"Still, if I were not, as an aspiring sage, incapable of being offended I would think that I'm being picked on unfairly." ~Kynete

Sages know that the world is not fair. Still, I don't see the pickiness in edonelly's remark (available at the top of the page). Some of us delve sporadically in the exotic, while you post everywhere in Latin like there's no tomorrow, maybe that's why. Personally, it does not offend me. If you don't want me to understand what you're saying, I don't care that much for your thoughts: I move on and still friends.

Why do the experts call you Kynete when your posted name is Kynetus? You wouldn't address a Marcus as Marce...
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Postby Kynetus Valesius » Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:21 pm

My dear Bardo, you wrote

If you don't want me to understand what you're saying, I don't care that much for your thoughts: I move on and still friends.


Seems like an sensible attitude... my thoughts are that NOT profound anyway - I'm just trying to exercise my latin skills.

Why do the experts call you Kynete when your posted name is Kynetus? You wouldn't address a Marcus as Marce...

Because Kynete would be the vocative of Kynetus.

I am still all agog to hear from the other stakeholders that I've addressed by name. But, as I intimated earlier, even if this situation does not resolve itself entirely in the way I would like, I will certainly bear no grudges and will even come to view my self-imposed silence as a blessing. That would because I've been so busy being the big advocate around here for living latin that I've been neglecting to eat other things on my plate.

Best again to all. Kynetus
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Postby edonnelly » Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:21 pm

Kynetus Valesius wrote:Since the only two people, both of whom I respect for their humanity and learning, that I know of who have voiced concerns are Ed. Donnelly and GGG, I address them directly in the hopes that we can work through this impasse.

I'm not sure what the impasse is. I said "We generally save Latin for the 'Compostition' and 'Agora' boards." Personally, I feel it is a courtesy to others, but I wasn't saying that it was a rule. While I understand some recent posts in Italian and Portugese were made to help some who do not have English as their native language, the presence of both the "Compostition" and "Agora" boards would seem to make posting in either Ancient Greek or Latin unnecessary elsewhere. It's just my opinion, but, as I said, it's generally what's been done. Exceptions do exists, but often (not always) they are for the sake of either humor or to make a specific point, not for general conversation. I personally have no interest in conversing in Latin.

It's possible my opinions differ from yours. If that is your impasse I have no solution for you.
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Postby Kynetus Valesius » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:02 pm

Dear Ed,

Thanks for your response. There is no doubt that I created a tempest where there was none previously. My bad ! I just get carried away at times - and I hope you'll be understanding. Annis has said that as far the open board goes, explicit rules have been minimized so that would indicate a green light for latin on the open board. However, I don't really care to do that anymore if it is going to be an constant irritant to good folks such as yourself. The reason the open board draws me I have already explained: the agora and compostion boards are less frequented than the open board. The open board is where the action is...as it were. Will it irritate or otherwise bother you if you see latin postings on the open board? That's all I wish to know. You seem like a good human, really. As for myself, I try. Sorry I have put you on the spot this way, but it is really myself that I have backed into a corner. But whatever the FINAL VERDICT, I truly believe it's all good. Wasn't one the our Hellenists going clarify his take on the validity of latin on the open board as well?

Best.
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Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:20 am

Excuse me if I sound excessively offended, my previous post may have exagerrated. But I do not understand your argument. On the one hand, you object to using the composition/agora because there isn't enough action, yet you do not mind if (some) readers pay no attention to your posts because they are in a language they understand not. Anyone who is competent enough in Latin to read a long post in Latin will probably read it whether it is in the open board or the agora, and can probably post some kind of reply in Latin too. It's the language, and not the board, which is limiting the action.

And I think the agora/composition boards should be more active, which means it needs people like you :wink:
Last edited by GlottalGreekGeek on Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Inero » Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:30 am

I will have consider either leaving or remaining silent


Whenever I hear (read) someone make that kind of veiled threat, my natural reaction is to hold the door open for them
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Postby Kynetus Valesius » Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:15 am

Not to worry G.G. Geek! I clearly got in a snit about nothing notwithstanding my philisophical pretensions regardng not offending others. Someone with even a wit of wisdom in the first instance wouldn't care about such things and in the second, if he did, he wouldn't go around turning up the thermostat and causing folks to feel uncomfortable; No, he'd just do unobtrusively whatever he had privately resolved upon.** So then, I pray you both to accept my apologies for having importuned you so. But it was not only you gentlemen that I inconvenienced but myself for I put myself in the tight spot of having vowed to do something that I am loathe to carryout inasmuch as I have come to enjoy the learned ambience and unique characters hereabouts.

You, Geek, wrote among other things this:

It's the language, and not the board, which is limiting the action.

Perhaps you are correct.

** While previewing my post I read Inero's contribution; he made precisely the same point.

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