Bardo de Saldo wrote:"I am just contesting the point that there is anything loaded into the ruleset of the brain of anyone alive today, including you [me], on ancient greek tonal contour inventory." ~Elilang
You don't need to make things up, Eli. If you want to contest, contest something that was actually said.
Bardo de Saldo wrote:Bardo de Saldo wrote:eliliang wrote:Bardo de Saldo wrote:Bardo de Saldo wrote:Mr. Daitz's Greek sounds wrong. I've never heard a language for the first time that sounded wrong. My English sounds as coming from a foreigner, but it doesn't sound wrong. My Mexican neighbor's English is terrible but it doesn't sound wrong. Will Annis' recitation of poetry in Mandarin doesn't sound wrong (he claims his Mandarin is not very good, and I can't judge).
Mr. Daitz sounds like a bad actor trying to be histrionic who has trained himself to do a little yodel every time he sees an accent mark.
I said it sounds wrong, not that it's wrong. It sounds unnatural, even for a histrionic performance.
"Personally, I would judge right or wrong in the following three different ways: [...]
Artistes like me have a fourth way: their sensitivity; in this case, honed by long meditation and practice on Homeric performance, and guided by my betters at Textkit.
Have you considered the rational possibility that for hearing human speech nothing beats a human ear?
eliliang wrote:I am just contesting the point that there is anything loaded into the ruleset of the brain of anyone alive today, including you, on ancient greek tonal contour inventory.
Bardo de Saldo wrote:"As you [me] are sitting out there on the limb ..." ~Elilang
Reminds me of a little poem I wrote a while back on the subject. How did it go? Ah, yes:
Arreando a la luna prendo vuelo,
y vuelto a contemplar el panorama,
con buena voluntad busco la trama
que ofrezca a las tinieblas un consuelo;
con el impulso salta el alma en celo
y se posa en lo alto de una rama,
hasta que lo gravado la reclama
y aterrizo de bruces en el suelo:
Estoy como a la hora de partida,
más cercano a la tumba que al destino;
con el burro espantado en estampida,
los trastos rebotando en el camino,
y el arriero, arreado por la vida,
corriendo tras el rastro del equino.
Bardo de Saldo wrote:"... I am just now (gently and with the greatest respect as should be granted to an artiste) "sawing off that limb" you [me] have climbed out on. [...]. [...]. [...]." ~Elilang.
I will respond to your misplaced aggressivity with kindness, Eli.
Bardo de Saldo wrote:By the time I'm finished, I will have helped you realize how behind that posing as some kind of Star Trek's 7-of-9 lies a sensitive heart. As an added bonus, you will agree with me that Mr. Daitz's Greek is implausable, and to top it off, you'll have a nice place on which to hang your own hat. Ready? Hold on to your hat:
The World Wide Web is full of web pages dedicated to Classical Greek. Every other Classics Professor seems to post his or her own little discertation on reconstructed pronunciation. Many of them would be willing to give you their opinion on others' recorded examples. And of all these Professors, who did Ms. Eli choose as an authority in whom to confide her phonetic doubts? Someone who rambled for hours on perispomena and properispomena? No. Someone with exciting new theories on catathesis and subglottal pressure? Again, no. Ms. Eli chose to go to Mr. Harris, who had posted on his website an essay on beauty. On beauty, ladies and gentlemen! Was that rational? So let's talk about beauty, Eli, that dearest of friends of rationalists. How many of the Classics do you think described Greek as being an especially beautiful language? More than one? That would be more evidence than the one guy (good old Dionysius) who talked about the fifth, and he gets quoted ad nauseam. So, Eli, listen again to Mr. Daitz with your ears or whatever other organ you want, employ as much of your cerebral acumen as you want to process the input, and tell me who would describe Mr. Daitz's verborrhea as beautiful. Not me.
Bardo de Saldo wrote:Have you considered the rational possibility that for hearing human speech nothing beats a human ear?
In reference to the previous posting, well said, Peter.
elis wrote:Yes, i consider modern greeks culturally balkans. And i dont see why one shouldnt use this turkish word as a label when there's so many turkish words in the m.greek vocabulary.
about your last point, the hellenization, one has to be just filed with patriotic propaganda to deny that during the last 2 centuries -or since the creation of the m. greek state - there's been a violent hellenization (languagewise) of many peoples that made the mistake to have another language as mothertongue.
my point was that this attitude of many modern greek scholars has also to do with them being g.o.
..., the reconstructed pronunciation mighty be imperfect, filled w/ gaps, flaws etc, but the m.greek one is just paranoid.
mostly nouns associated with Turkish customs and habits
The Greek state did "force" non Greek speakers along its northern frontiers to learn Greek. What was wrong with that policy? It would have been kind of negligent for the Greek state not to have done so. Try living in a country where you don't know the language and will see how fast you'll move up the economic ladder. The descendants of these people are today full-fledged, proud GREEK citizens.
My dear Elis, the vast majority of the Gr. pop. is Gr. Orthodox.
the reconstructed pronunciation mighty be imperfect, filled w/ gaps, flaws etc, but the m.greek one is just paranoid.
)/Ax, fi/le, tw/ra ta\ xala/same
Kalwsori/sate sto textkit
Timotheus wrote:Ok i made my last post then fell onto this...
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris ... cents.html
If he says is true then I do want to hear it and do it right so now back to the beginning where do I find somthing i can hear in order to please the senses as well as the intellect?
Eliliang wrote: "This was exactly what I read which had me corresponding with Prof. Harris. How can he assert that the pitch accent is beautiful when (perk up your ears now Bardo ) all the examples I find are so ugly.
You can go back to the post where I dialog with Prof. Harris about this. It is 13 messages back.
Bardo de Saldo wrote:"It seems possible to me that the difference in said syllable-length rules may in fact be related directly to the fact that the pitch only changes on the vowels. If this is the case, then a pitch accent of some sort will be required to preserve the metre." ~Eureka
Quantitative metre and stress accents don't exclude each other. Take Latin, for example.
Bardo de Saldo wrote:"The obvious question about Latin quantitative verse is, did it follow the Modern English or Ancient Greek rules with regard to long-by-position?" ~Eureka.
I take it that you meant whether English got its rules from Latin or Greek. I've read they got them from Provenzal trouvadors, who I guess translated quantitative forms from Latin for romantic reasons to fit their stressed language.
Bardo de Saldo wrote: I've read a bit about English versification, and this is the first time I hear that there are rules in English for syllable length. An English dactyl is supposed to be tonic-atonic-atonic, not long-short-short.
Bardo de Saldo wrote:Going back to Mr. Daitz: what's your opinion on his metric performance? I think that he does a good job at getting those syllable lengths right, although the result doesn't sound quite rhythmic to me.
Bardo de Saldo wrote:I've read those verses of the Odyssey in English trying to make the long and short syllables as indicated, and I sounded just like Professor Daitz!
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