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Advanced Latin

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:56 pm

Is anyone aware of a decent, advanced Latin text? I want to find a instructional text of the same calibur as Wheelock's Latin with more advanced subject matter. Any suggestions, no matter how inane or impertinent, are welcome.
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby bingley » Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:33 am

Since I've never used Wheelock I can't comment on their comparative difficulty, but I'm finding Latin: An Intensive Course by Moreland and Fleischer a useful revision text.<br /><br />After that I would suggest start reading Latin: either on your own and consulting with the more experienced members here, or with a good reader that explains difficulties in the text.
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby vinobrien » Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:51 am

I can only agree on Moreland and Fleischer which I have an almost episcopal zeal for. <br /><br />I would also suggest Wheelock's Reader which drops you onto the ski run of Cicero early on but holds your hand through the tricky bends. Curiously it ends with some medieval Latin which is considerably easier than the Cicero it starts with.
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Moerus » Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:55 pm

The most complete Latin grammer is in German and so very difficult to read! And very expensive too. Kühner, Ausfürliche Grammatik der Lateinische Sprache. <br /><br />If you don't can get enough, you can look there.
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Episcopus » Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:39 pm

[quote author=vinobrien link=board=3;threadid=445;start=0#3649 date=1060681869]<br />I can only agree on Moreland and Fleischer which I have an almost episcopal zeal for. <br /><br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />HAH :D<br /><br />I'm just laughing at the word episcopal what a word.
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby mariek » Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:45 pm

[quote author=vinobrien link=board=3;threadid=445;start=0#3649 date=1060681869]<br />I can only agree on Moreland and Fleischer which I have an almost episcopal zeal for. [/quote]<br /><br />I just placed my order for M&F yesterday, and am looking forward to using it along with BLD. Perhaps I'll develop the same episcopal zeal for it... ;D<br />
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Episcopus » Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:33 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=445;start=0#3691 date=1060710337]<br /><br /><br />I just placed my order for M&F yesterday, and am looking forward to using it along with BLD. Perhaps I'll develop the same episcopal zeal for it... ;D<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Is M&F not an advanced book? i.e Even past the standard at the end of the Syntax section of Dr. B.L.D
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Tue Aug 12, 2003 7:58 pm

How might one procure a copy of this "Moreland and Fleisher," for which you almost have an episcopal zeal?<br /> ;)
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby mariek » Tue Aug 12, 2003 8:05 pm

<br />You can find it on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520031830/qid=1060718580/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-0388773-6873741?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) where you can look at a few pages from the book. You can also find it in some larger bookstores (viz. Borders, Barnes and Noble); I've never seen it an smaller Waldenbooks/B.Dalton/Brentanos type bookstores). <br /><br />I bought mine from Amazon because I had a gift certificate. ;D
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Tue Aug 12, 2003 8:12 pm

Thank you for the link. However, I have come across a few reviews of the book, both on Amazon and on Barnes & Noble, saying that the grammar sometimes is simply incorrect and "dodgy". I am not absolutely certain I want to buy this book yet. Thank you again for the recommendations, however.
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby adz000 » Tue Aug 12, 2003 8:19 pm

When you say more advanced subject matter, is there anything specifically you have in mind as a goal? For example, do you want to develop a better ability to sight-read Latin prose, do you want to try your hand at Latin composition, are there certain poets you would like to be able to read more fluently? I've never been through Wheelock's -- it seems like a rite of passage I skipped -- so I'm not sure where it leaves you off or what it leaves out of the course. Maybe there are particular areas you want to have more confidence in, such as sequence of tenses in indirect discourse or uses of the subjunctive?
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Tue Aug 12, 2003 8:30 pm

I want to be fully versed in all things Latin.<br /><br />Among the subjunctive (Wheelock's Latin only formally introduces a few uses of the subjunctive), there are many other things in which I would like to have a consummate knowledge.<br />
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby mariek » Tue Aug 12, 2003 8:38 pm

Saunter down to your local bookstore and see whether they have Gildersleeve's Latin Grammar. Browse through it and see if it's not what you're seeking.<br /><br />It has favorable reviews on Amazon/B&N. (Ah, the power of the internet!). Only one review on each site, however, I think this is because the book is not as ubiquitous as something like Wheelock.
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Milito » Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:09 pm

[quote author=Lumen_et_umbra link=board=3;threadid=445;start=0#3708 date=1060720256]<br />I want to be fully versed in all things Latin.<br /><br />Among the subjunctive (Wheelock's Latin only formally introduces a few uses of the subjunctive), there are many other things in which I would like to have a consummate knowledge.<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Check out the "Bennett's Latin Grammar" here on this site. It's still being published, actually, as it was used as the grammar text in the last Latin course I took, an intermediate-level reading/composition course. Bennett is saharan dry, but really good for filling in details, so long as you're looking for a reference, as opposed to something comfortably readable (like Wheelock).<br /><br />I have Wheelock, and I have M&F, and have honestly stopped using Wheelock altogether, while M&F has become a useful grammar reference. I haven't noticed any glaring errors (or non-glaring ones, actually), but I do cross-reference it with Bennett (and vice versa) to make sure I'm really getting something sorted out.<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Episcopus » Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:36 pm

[quote author=Lumen_et_umbra link=board=3;threadid=445;start=0#3708 date=1060720256]<br /><br />Among the subjunctive (Wheelock's Latin only formally introduces a few uses of the subjunctive)<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Perhaps you may consider looking at Dr. B.L.D's book; he talks concerning the subjunctive for many a page.
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby adz000 » Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:39 pm

I think Mariek's advice is excellent. You'll need Gildersleeve's grammar if you want to know Latin inside-and-out, and it will be clear why once you've consulted it a few times: it is the most comprehensive Latin reference available in English (to my knowledge). From personal experience and from the advice of people who know Latin far better than I do, if you want to learn Latin seriously you must buy this book.<br /><br />It is certainly possible to learn out of a grammar, I learned most of what I know about tenses and moods by carefully copying the important bits out of Gildersleeve. Charts can be constructed and memorized (if I see an independent subjunctive, there are x, y, and z possibilities for what construction it is). Be warned: there are many grammatical exceptions and Gildersleeve won't hold your hand, to his infinite merit. <br /><br />You'll need more. Extensive reading is a must, and that means authentic Latin texts that are well-annotated regarding grammar and style, most likely written for Victorian schoolboys. Skip Latin readers, which are by definition fake/simplified Latin, except when you need light reading (which might be often if you read real Latin with intensity and commitment). Choose to read works that appeal to you. Do you like war? Have an historical interest in Latin? Read Caesar or Livy. Cicero is a must and you might take a look at the offerings here at textkit.<br /><br />On breaks you might be entertained by reading early humanist treatises on education (in Latin of course). There can be some found in PDF form at the bibliotheque national: http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/Consultat ... &O=N064979 "De Formando Studio" by Rudolf Agricola, Erasmus, and Melanchthon. You'll feel inadequate when you learn about the rigor with which people like John Milton, or Michel de Montaigne (speaking fluent Latin by 6!) prosecuted their studies.<br /><br />Just keep reading, do whatever it takes to stay motivated. Fill up notebooks with Latin quotes, memorize passages, make careful notations about the difficulties you have.<br /><br />I'm still curious as to why you'd like consummate knowledge of Latin. There are many languages one can attain consummate knowledge of, but why choose Latin? Why not a modern language? Or for dead languages, Greek? Or Akkadian for that matter? What is it that drives you about Latin?
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Episcopus » Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:50 pm

Yes! Yes! :D <br /><br />I shall certainly give that book a read once I have finished Dr. B.L.D's works. <br /><br />How does Allen and Greenough fare relatively? I have one of these, does it be worth it to read it?<br /><br /><br />
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby adz000 » Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:33 pm

I don't want to start a flamewar by suggesting that A&G may be slightly worse than Gildersleeve's, especially since I don't know A&G well enough to have a serious opinion, but my impression is that Gildersleeve really does outstrip its competitors and, further, tends to be used by more people who know better than I do -- Reginaldus, for example, translator to the Pope swears by it (yes and by the Bible too, but less often).<br /><br />That said, it may be that A&G fits better for you. The two things you ought to look for in a grammar as 1) ease of use, in other words how quickly you can find what you need to know, and 2) comprehensiveness, or does it pull its punches and give you Latin-lite. It helps to have two different grammars that can sometimes explain things from different angles. Sometimes someone prefers the jargon of one grammar to another. Bennett's grammar, which I've had more experience with, is more straightforward than Gildersleeve and great for beginners; but it's far, far less informative. One can often judge the quality of a grammar by how many exceptions to the rule it gives and how many quotes it supplies. High numbers of both are good signs. <br /><br />
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:07 pm

I wish I had read this before having just bought a copy of "Allen & Greenough's New Latin Grammar". Oh well.
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Carola » Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:04 am

I also like the method of looking up a subject in as many sources as I can, and also going back to the texts when you "think" you know it (because you'll then find out another 10 things you missed or went over your head the first time). It is rather like those people who chip away at bits of rock patiently and find the fossils underneath! <br />Try also Woodcock, E.C., A New Latin Syntax, Bristol Classical Press.. (If you can find it)
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Milito » Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:43 pm

Much thanks to adz000 for his excellent info on Gildersleeve and the great advice on reading! (Note to self - go look fervently for Gildersleeve!)<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Keesa » Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:01 pm

[quote author=Carola link=board=3;threadid=445;start=15#3757 date=1060747443]<br />It is rather like those people who chip away at bits of rock patiently and find the fossils underneath! <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />That's an excellent simile, but somehow I don't think Episcopus is going to like it much...<br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Carola » Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:26 am

[quote author=Keesa link=board=3;threadid=445;start=15#3869 date=1060815716]<br />[quote author=Carola link=board=3;threadid=445;start=15#3757 date=1060747443]<br />It is rather like those people who chip away at bits of rock patiently and find the fossils underneath! <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />That's an excellent simile, but somehow I don't think Episcopus is going to like it much...<br /><br />Keesa<br />[/quote]<br />Well, I'm an old fossil myself - and proud of it!
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Episcopus » Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:49 am

[quote author=Carola link=board=3;threadid=445;start=15#3757 date=1060747443]<br />It is rather like those people who chip away at bits of rock patiently and find the fossils underneath! <br />Try also Woodcock<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Don't we have smiley here for insane uncontrollable laughter??
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Keesa » Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:14 pm

Nope. You have to write it in. Or you could just put several big grins one after the other, I suppose... ;D ;D ;D<br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Advanced Latin

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:55 pm

[quote author=adz000 link=board=3;threadid=445;start=15#3721 date=1060724368]<br />I'm still curious as to why you'd like consummate knowledge of Latin. There are many languages one can attain consummate knowledge of, but why choose Latin? Why not a modern language? Or for dead languages, Greek? Or Akkadian for that matter? What is it that drives you about Latin?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I already speak Spanish, and, coevally, I am learning ancient Greek, and Italian.<br />Also, it is pragmatically impossible to attain a perfect knowledge of a contemporary language, because it will always be contemporary (i.e., it is always changing); Latin, however, is static, and, being thus, I can learn to speak it with perfection. Besides, anything, when viewed in a particular light, can be made to seem otiose; however, I have merely decided to arbitrarly place a great praemium on learning Latin (as men do with paper called 'money') - that I might not go insane with the knowledge of the futility of persuing anything in life.
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