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Unit Four - Exercises

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Unit Four - Exercises

Postby Cyborg » Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:17 am

Out of all the exercises I'm only in doubt about the four below. I'd appreciate if anyone could help me.

exercises.i.14. fēminae pulchrae uirōs miserōs ē prōuinciā rōmānā ad amīcum oppidum cum magnā turbā mittunt nē incolae prōuinciae esse uideantur.
14. the beautiful women send the poor men out of the roman province to a friendly town with a great crowd in order that it may not seem they are inhabitants of the province.
this "esse uideantur" is what I'm in trouble with.

exercises.i.15. fīlia rēgīnae bonae ad āram ā nautīs rōmānīs ducta est ut honesta dīs agerentur.
* 15. the daughter of the good queen was conducted to the altar by the roman sailors in order that honorable (things) were done to the gods.
is honesta nominative plural neuter of honestus, a, um, to mean "honorable things"?

exercises.i.26. monuerat ut litterās amīcō trāderētis quod uēra dē perīculīs rēgnō legere nōn optāuistis.
* 26. he had warned in order that you all might send the letter to (your) friend because you all did not desire to read the true (things) about the dangers to the kingdom.
Is uēra nominative plural neuter of uērus, a, um, to mean "true things"?

exercises.i.27. āra aeterna ab incolīs oppidī facta est ut dōna dīs cāra darentur.
* 27. the eternal altar was done by the inhabitants of the town in order that gifts to the dear gods might be given.
I don't understand why is cāra nominative. the vocabulary section says the adjective cārus, a, um, takes the dative, but I can't understand how an adjective can choose a case to take...
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Chapter 4

Postby bellum paxque » Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:06 am

It does my heart much good to see you working through these exercises, especially after our conversation about M&F. Also, I remember most, if not all, of these sentences, having written them all out in my notebook to aid retention and comprehension. They are rather like old friends.

I hope my comments are helpful...now to begin.

exercises.i.14. fēminae pulchrae uirōs miserōs ē prōuinciā rōmānā ad amīcum oppidum cum magnā turbā mittunt nē incolae prōuinciae esse uideantur.
14. the beautiful women send the poor men out of the roman province to a friendly town with a great crowd in order that it may not seem they are inhabitants of the province.
this "esse uideantur" is what I'm in trouble with.


I actually remember struggling with that purpose clause myself. I would render it, "....in order that they may not seem to be inhabitants of the province." Perhaps you do not share this tendency, but I have a hard time remembering that nominative case nouns and adjectives in a subordinate clause, especially a purpose clause, can be in the predicate position. I just automatically assume they are the subject, though the subject role may be fulfilled by what is implicit in the verb.

exercises.i.15. fīlia rēgīnae bonae ad āram ā nautīs rōmānīs ducta est ut honesta dīs agerentur.
* 15. the daughter of the good queen was conducted to the altar by the roman sailors in order that honorable (things) were done to the gods.
is honesta nominative plural neuter of honestus, a, um, to mean "honorable things"?


Another tricky one, probably because of the ambiguity of the verb "ago." If I am getting this right, I think that "ago" can mean "to plead, as in a courtroom." This sense suggested the following interpretation of the purpose clause: "in order that honorable things might be plead to (or before) the gods." Notice the tense, also..."were" doesn't work in a purpose clause in English.

exercises.i.26. monuerat ut litterās amīcō trāderētis quod uēra dē perīculīs rēgnō legere nōn optāuistis.
* 26. he had warned in order that you all might send the letter to (your) friend because you all did not desire to read the true (things) about the dangers to the kingdom.
Is uēra nominative plural neuter of uērus, a, um, to mean "true things"?


I assume that you meant "accusative plural neuter," since in fact, in your sentence, "true things" is the object (accusative) of "read." In any case, it must be the object in that quod clause, since there are no other words that possess an accusative ending--legere, of course, typically requires an object. A couple of minor notes: "monuerat ut" might be better rendered, "he had warned you to," since it is an indirect command and not really a purpose clause. Also, "trado" (trans+do) is "to hand over," not "to send."

exercises.i.27. āra aeterna ab incolīs oppidī facta est ut dōna dīs cāra darentur.
* 27. the eternal altar was done by the inhabitants of the town in order that gifts to the dear gods might be given.
I don't understand why is cāra nominative. the vocabulary section says the adjective cārus, a, um, takes the dative, but I can't understand how an adjective can choose a case to take...


One clarification: adjectives can govern nouns--carus mihi means "dear to me." The vocabulary was trying to express this relationship. So, the noun that depends on "carus" will be in the dative case. So, if cara is nominative, what might it be modifying? As you know, just because words are separated doesn't mean that they aren't related. The purpose clause is still ambiguous here, if I'm interpreting it correctly, but the confusion has to do with "dis." It's dative, sure, but is it governed by "cara" or by "darentur"? It seems to work either way: "so that dear gifts might be given to the gods" or "so that gifts dear to the gods might be given." I like the first option better, because "give" usually predicate two nouns: the object given and the recipient to whom it is given. But sometimes the recipient can be omitted, if it is clear enough in context.

Much more than you wanted to read, I'm sure, but I feel excited to give advice on this forum. Best luck as you continue through the exercises!

David
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Re: Chapter 4

Postby Cyborg » Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:55 pm

bellum paxque wrote:It does my heart much good to see you working through these exercises, especially after our conversation about M&F. Also, I remember most, if not all, of these sentences, having written them all out in my notebook to aid retention and comprehension. They are rather like old friends.

I'm loving M&F, I really feel I'm learning something each unit!
I'm also gathering all the done homework in a file in my computer.

Much more than you wanted to read, I'm sure, but I feel excited to give advice on this forum. Best luck as you continue through the exercises!

Much useful help that was, I even shouted an "oh!" when I read that about the case-taking special-adjective "cárus". :)
Thanks for the help, bellum paxque, it really fixed me up and now I've completed units one to four (including the self-review exercises) magnó cum studió. :D
That took me a week or so, I think.

Just to finish it up really well, I'd just like one clarification on the Reading at Unit Four.

the third sentence reads:

uir á dís léctus erat ut factum faceret quod honestus bonam uítam ageret.

Indeed it has a note (number 4) to explain the "ageret" in the "quod" sentence, but nevertheless I have this very problem with it. How do I translate the "quod" sentence to English? I can understand (I think) what is it saying, if I may translate "quod" more loosely ("so that"), but... that's what I've got:

the man had been chosen by the goddesses in order that he might make the deed because (then?) the distinguished (one) could conduct a good life.

Thanks again, bellum paxque. I read somewhere you're already past Unit 11, is that so? How is it going for you?
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Postby bellum paxque » Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:47 pm

I'm loving M&F, I really feel I'm learning something each unit!


This was also how I felt. I love the excitement of regular learning.

uir á dís léctus erat ut factum faceret quod honestus bonam uítam ageret.

...How do I translate the "quod" sentence to English? I can understand (I think) what is it saying, if I may translate "quod" more loosely ("so that"), but... that's what I've got:

the man had been chosen by the goddesses in order that he might make the deed because (then?) the distinguished (one) could conduct a good life.


First, dis may be either gods or goddesses in this case. Now, the quod is the tricky part, mainly because of a certain ambiguity of reference. "So that" is not a good rendering of quod. In fact, though quod can be a wild variety of things--"which, what" (nominative/accusative singular neuter of relative pronoun or interrogative pronoun), "the fact that," and "because," to name a few--I'm pretty sure it can't be "so that." At least, there are also a wild variety of options for purpose in Latin--ut, ad + gerund, genitive + causa, or even the relative pronoun--but I've never seen quod in such a case.

Here, I think it works best as "because," which in fact you chose in your translation. Here's how I render it:

"The man had been chosen by the gods so that he might do the deed because, as an honorable man, he was (or seemed to be) leading a good life."

It was a little confusing for me whether it was the case that "the man had been chosen because..." or that "he might do the deed because..." But once you assume that "vir" and "honestus" refer to the same guy, the problems disappear. So, more loosely, the gods noticed that this guy was (or seemed to be: note the subjunctive in the quod clause, indicating appearance or slight uncertainty) honorably leading a good life, so they chose him to carry out their wishes about some task that needed doing.

You had most of that in your translation, but sometimes the lack of context makes meaning hard to obtain, even if the syntax is clear.

Thanks again, bellum paxque. I read somewhere you're already past Unit 11, is that so? How is it going for you?


I am past unit 11 -- in fact, I've finished the entire textbook, with the exception of the final selections from Caesar's Gallic War, which follow unit 18. Once I read through them carefully (as opposed to the quick skimming I did at work two weeks ago), ducere librum factum potero!

Best luck,

David[/code]
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Postby Cyborg » Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:31 pm

bellum paxque wrote:"The man had been chosen by the gods so that he might do the deed because, as an honorable man, he was (or seemed to be) leading a good life."

Hmm, this makes enough sense, and has much to do with the note the book gives about this "ageret". The authors knew some of us would have trouble with this. I adapted after your sugestion so to arrive at "because the honorable man seemed to conduct a good life", which I think is smoother as not to add so much to the text.

thanks for the throughout explanation!

bellum paxque wrote:You had most of that in your translation, but sometimes the lack of context makes meaning hard to obtain, even if the syntax is clear.

Well, i tried it the first time and couldn't translate. then i translated the rest of the text without a problem and when i came back to this third sentence i still could not translate it. then i translated word-by-word (it works everytime, I always do that when I have trouble with a sentence) but I still couldn't see the meaning, but the problem was only the "ageret", I did not know how to translate it properly since it was an use so special in the text that it even deserved a note mention.

bellum paxque wrote:I am past unit 11 -- in fact, I've finished the entire textbook, with the exception of the final selections from Caesar's Gallic War, which follow unit 18. Once I read through them carefully (as opposed to the quick skimming I did at work two weeks ago), ducere librum factum potero!

Wow, already?
That's very good, I can't wait to finish my studies too.
So, are you going to give Greek a try, too? Everybody seems to do that once they're done with Latin. ;)
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Postby bellum paxque » Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:26 am

I did not know how to translate it properly since it was an use so special in the text that it even deserved a note mention.


It can be frustrating sometimes, but I do appreciate the fact that M&F expects its students to rise to the challenge, even when certain sentences are rather more difficult than a beginner's book usually contains.

So, are you going to give Greek a try, too? Everybody seems to do that once they're done with Latin.


Yes, eventually! But, I do hope that I stick with Latin long enough to really feel comfortable wading into the classic authors (Ovid and Virgil come to mind). After that, I'll start Greek. (My long term project is to be proficient in Latin, Greek, French, German, Italian, Spanish, and English. I am, of course, fluent in English already, and I have studied French enough to be able to read it pretty well though I am hardly able to carry conversation. And now I've made considerable progress in Latin. I'm getting there!)
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Postby Cyborg » Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:41 pm

bellum paxque wrote:Yes, eventually! But, I do hope that I stick with Latin long enough to really feel comfortable wading into the classic authors (Ovid and Virgil come to mind). After that, I'll start Greek. (My long term project is to be proficient in Latin, Greek, French, German, Italian, Spanish, and English. I am, of course, fluent in English already, and I have studied French enough to be able to read it pretty well though I am hardly able to carry conversation. And now I've made considerable progress in Latin. I'm getting there!)

Wow, it's a long journey!
I wish you best luck with these goals! :wink:
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Postby potatohog » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 am

bellum paxque wrote:First, dis may be either gods or goddesses in this case.

Well. On page 226 in the free textbook Latin for Beginners the following is mentioned.

Dea and filia have the termination -abus in the dative and ablative plural.

Maybe these two words were so important to the Romans that they wanted to avoid any ambiguity even at the cost of regularity.
Last edited by potatohog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chapter 4

Postby potatohog » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:46 am

bellum paxque wrote:The purpose clause is still ambiguous here, if I'm interpreting it correctly, but the confusion has to do with "dis." It's dative, sure, but is it governed by "cara" or by "darentur"? It seems to work either way: "so that dear gifts might be given to the gods" or "so that gifts dear to the gods might be given." I like the first option better, because "give" usually predicate two nouns: the object given and the recipient to whom it is given. But sometimes the recipient can be omitted, if it is clear enough in context.

I prefer rather the second interpretation, because otherwise it's quite strange that dis has been inserted between dona and cara. On the contratry, it's fairly common to have phrases such as oppidum Romanis inimicum (town that is hostile to Romans).
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