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Unit Three - Exercises

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Unit Three - Exercises

Postby Cyborg » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:41 am

just two questions:

unit 3 - exercises - i - 15.
nisí tacuisset, miserum monuissem ut lacrimás céláret.
if "nisi" means both "if... not" and "unless", how do I choose between these two versions?
if you had not kept silent [but you did keep silent], i would have warned the miserable in order that he might conceal his tears.
unless you had kept silent [but as you did not keep silent], i would have warned the miserable in order that he might conceal his tears.

unit 3 - exercises - i - 17.
sententiás régína próuinciae mútáuit né poétae timérent.
is this version right (in bold what i'm in doubt with)?:
the queen changed the opinions of the province in order that the poets might not fear (them).

thanks.
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Re: Unit Three - Exercises

Postby benissimus » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:13 am

Cyborg wrote:just two questions:

unit 3 - exercises - i - 15.
nisí tacuisset, miserum monuissem ut lacrimás céláret.
if "nisi" means both "if... not" and "unless", how do I choose between these two versions?
if you had not kept silent [but you did keep silent], i would have warned the miserable in order that he might conceal his tears.
unless you had kept silent [but as you did not keep silent], i would have warned the miserable in order that he might conceal his tears.

"unless" and "if not" mean about the same thing, but they are sometimes used differently. This sentence sounds better to me if you use the "if ... not" translation, but "unless" could be used without any significant change in meaning. Also, you need to reanalyze the ending of tacuisset.

unit 3 - exercises - i - 17.
sententiás régína próuinciae mútáuit né poétae timérent.
is this version right (in bold what i'm in doubt with)?:
the queen changed the opinions of the province in order that the poets might not fear (them).

I would translate that last part of the sentence "so that the poets would not be afraid". you could say "fear them" but it seems just as likely that they might "fear her".
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Postby Cyborg » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:29 pm

benissimus wrote:"unless" and "if not" mean about the same thing, but they are sometimes used differently. This sentence sounds better to me if you use the "if ... not" translation, but "unless" could be used without any significant change in meaning. Also, you need to reanalyze the ending of tacuisset.

Yes, I know they mean the same thing, but they are obviously changing the meaning in this sentence, aren't they?

That's the only way I can think of it (oh, thanks for the tacuisset):
if he had not kept silent implies that he indeed kept silence, and the sentence is alluding to a hypothetical situation in which, contrary-to-fact in the past, something would have happened if things were not the way they were.
On the other hand:
unless he had kept silent implies that he may have done everything but keeping silent, and the sentence alludes to a hypothetical situation in which something would have happened if he had kept silent, something he did not do.

So my question is, how do I know if he did keep silent or not, when in a case like this "if ... not" and "unless" each gives a different meaning to the sentence? The only way they could have the same meaning would be if in the second version I were to say "unless he had not kept silent", for that implies that he may have done everything but not keeping silent, which means he did keep silent, and thus means the same as the first version, the one with "if ... not".

benissimus wrote:I would translate that last part of the sentence "so that the poets would not be afraid". you could say "fear them" but it seems just as likely that they might "fear her".

hmm, of course! I forgot that timeó can mean "be afraid" too.

P.S.: how do I type vowels with macrons here on the forum?
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Postby benissimus » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:41 pm

Cyborg wrote:
benissimus wrote:"unless" and "if not" mean about the same thing, but they are sometimes used differently. This sentence sounds better to me if you use the "if ... not" translation, but "unless" could be used without any significant change in meaning. Also, you need to reanalyze the ending of tacuisset.

Yes, I know they mean the same thing, but they are obviously changing the meaning in this sentence, aren't they?

That's the only way I can think of it (oh, thanks for the tacuisset):
if he had not kept silent implies that he indeed kept silence, and the sentence is alluding to a hypothetical situation in which, contrary-to-fact in the past, something would have happened if things were not the way they were.
On the other hand:
unless he had kept silent implies that he may have done everything but keeping silent, and the sentence alludes to a hypothetical situation in which something would have happened if he had kept silent, something he did not do.

So my question is, how do I know if he did keep silent or not, when in a case like this "if ... not" and "unless" each gives a different meaning to the sentence? The only way they could have the same meaning would be if in the second version I were to say "unless he had not kept silent", for that implies that he may have done everything but not keeping silent, which means he did keep silent, and thus means the same as the first version, the one with "if ... not".

Maybe I have been brainwashed by too much Latin, but "unless he had kept silent", though a strange wording, means exactly the same thing to my mind as "if he had not kept silent". Both imply to me that he did remain silent.

P.S.: how do I type vowels with macrons here on the forum?

you can use accents or put a ':' after the long vowel if you like, or you can copy/paste a vowel with a macron into your post or you can write the code for a vowels with macrons in your post body: Ā (Ā), ā (ā), Ē (Ē), ē (ē), Ī (Ī), ī (ī), Ō (Ō), ō (ō), Ū (Ū), ū (ū). It isn't necessary to mark macrons here since most of us can understand without them, though they are particularly helpful in distinguishing first declension ablatives and some perfect tenses. It looks nicer than makeshift macrons, but it is more time-consuming than it is worth I think. I can't seem to find the macron Y :(
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Postby Cyborg » Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:33 pm

benissimus wrote:Maybe I have been brainwashed by too much Latin, but "unless he had kept silent", though a strange wording, means exactly the same thing to my mind as "if he had not kept silent". Both imply to me that he did remain silent.

Hmm, giving it a third thought (!), I see you're right. I counfused myself with the "not" and whatnot.

benissimus wrote:It isn't necessary to mark macrons here since most of us can understand without them, though they are particularly helpful in distinguishing first declension ablatives and some perfect tenses.

I know, but I like macrons so much now that I've got a book that uses them. :)

cūrā ut ualeās!
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Postby benissimus » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:47 pm

Cyborg wrote:
benissimus wrote:Maybe I have been brainwashed by too much Latin, but "unless he had kept silent", though a strange wording, means exactly the same thing to my mind as "if he had not kept silent". Both imply to me that he did remain silent.

Hmm, giving it a third thought (!), I see you're right. I counfused myself with the "not" and whatnot.

Actually, on further rumination, I see what you are talking about. Curiously, I had to say the sentence with a specific tone to understand it that way. I think context will clarify, unless the author is being intentionally vague.
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Postby Mofmog » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:06 pm

I love the almost wacky sentences this book dishes out:

Saxis pugnaveramus ne nautae acerbi feminas poetarum clarorum specatrent.

I imagine a group of brutes surrounding a flock of poets and their women while holding stones just ready to throw them at a few sailors.
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Postby Andrus » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:08 am

Salve Cyborg,

My Latin studies had stop for a while due to lack of time so I’m just replying to the macrons question.

The way I do it is typing the post with MS Word, where I have made shortcut to vowels with macrons, and then I copy and past in the reply page.

As I always type my posts in MS Word to be able to check the spelling it isn’t much more trouble. Anyway I think it is easier then typing the codes of the vowels with macrons.

Hope this helps.

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Postby Cyborg » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:37 pm

Mofmog wrote:I love the almost wacky sentences this book dishes out:

Saxis pugnaveramus ne nautae acerbi feminas poetarum clarorum specatrent.

I imagine a group of brutes surrounding a flock of poets and their women while holding stones just ready to throw them at a few sailors.

Hahaha. :D
They're indeed very funny and awkward. I laugh a lot at them.

Andrus wrote:The way I do it is typing the post with MS Word, where I have made shortcut to vowels with macrons, and then I copy and past in the reply page.

salue, andre,
thanks for the tip. typing the html codes is really boring, but I do not have MS Word. :(
That's why, to ease the pain, I wrote a little program that replaces á, é, í, ó, ú for ā, ē, ī, ō, ū. I can send it to you if you want it, but I think you're already comfortable with Word since, as you said, you always use it to write your posts. I use notepad. :)
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Postby Andrus » Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:28 am

Salve Cyborg,

Thanks for the offer of the program, but as you said I always use Word to write every post (using or not using macrons) so I will stick to that.

Best regards,

Andrus
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Re: Unit Three - Exercises

Postby revcom » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:09 pm

Hey,

I'm really struggling through my latin course using M&F's lating (thank god I found this board) and I'm pretty confused about basically everything. However, we're on unit 3, and I'm working on the excersizes. If anyone could point out where i might have a flaw in translating sentence 1, I would really appreciate it.


Nautae validï magnā cum cūrā pūgnābant ut incolās insulae superārent

Nautae is “sailors” in the Nominative plural: “the sailors”

validï is nominative masculine plural: “strong”

Combining to make “the strong sailors”

magnā has a macron over the a final “a” making ablative singular: “with great”

cum + cūrā in the ablative singular “with anxiety”

combining to make “great with anxiety”

pūgnābant is 1st conjugation/3rd person/Imperfect/plural, making it “they used to fight”

ut is “in order that”

So far, I have translated this as

“The strong sailors, great with anxiety used to fight in order that...”

incolās has a macron over the “a” making it accusative plural: “the inhabitants”

insulae is genitive singular, making it “of the island”

combining to make “the inhabitants of the island”

superārent is 3rd person/plural /Imperfect active: “used to conquer”

Making my final translation:

The strong sailors, with great anxiety used to fight in order to overcome the inhabitants of the island.
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Re: Unit Three - Exercises

Postby phil96 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:30 am

Hi revcom,

As a fellow user of M&F (just about to begin chapter 12) I should make a start towards paying back for all the help others have given me so far. So here goes. I think you have got the sense of the sentence well. I'd make a few small points along the way.

magnā cum cūrā can be "with great anxiety" but this construction can also be translated adverbially as "very anxiously" (see page 50, F)

pūgnābant. The imperfect tense can also have a continuous aspect, so it could be "were fighting" (see page 22 under B), giving "were fighting very anxiously"

ut ... sūperārent. Where "ut" means "in order that" it takes a subjunctive verb, so "superarent" is 3rd person plural imperfect subjunctive active (and it's in secondary sequence after pugnabant). There is a complication that you need to be aware of when you use a word-for-word translation technique as you have done. Sometimes a word can't be translated with certainty in isolation: e.g., the subjunctive "superarent" could have several translations depending on how it's being used in a sentence.

I hope that my page numbers in M&F match yours. There are at least two editions.
Are you learning by yourself, or in a class?
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