U)PE/R
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Hi Bert,
Nice observation; and an interesting question.
Apparently [size=150]ὑπό[/size] and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size] are related.
In Watkins' "The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots", 'upo' contains these entries:
7. Basic form *upo. HYPO-, from Greek hupo, under.
8. Suffixed variant form *ups-o-. HYPSO-, from Greek hupsos, height, top.
Note: 7 says 'under', 8 says 'height, top'.
Now the [size=150]ὕψ[/size] in [size=150]ὕψος[/size] is also seen in [size=150]ὕψι[/size], 'on high'; cf. [size=150]ὑψιβρεμέτης[/size]. Chantraine conjectures that its final iota may be a locative suffix.
Removing it and what Chantraine calls the the 'obscure sigma morpheme', we are left with [size=150]ὕπ[/size]. He calls this the root of both [size=150]ὑπό[/size] and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size].
I'm not sure I understand quite how one gets 'under' from a root meaning 'on high, above'. Perhaps the latter always calls to mind the former, as in 'under high heaven'....
Evidently, English 'up' is cognate with [size=150]ὑπό[/size].
Cordially,
Paul
Nice observation; and an interesting question.
Apparently [size=150]ὑπό[/size] and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size] are related.
In Watkins' "The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots", 'upo' contains these entries:
7. Basic form *upo. HYPO-, from Greek hupo, under.
8. Suffixed variant form *ups-o-. HYPSO-, from Greek hupsos, height, top.
Note: 7 says 'under', 8 says 'height, top'.
Now the [size=150]ὕψ[/size] in [size=150]ὕψος[/size] is also seen in [size=150]ὕψι[/size], 'on high'; cf. [size=150]ὑψιβρεμέτης[/size]. Chantraine conjectures that its final iota may be a locative suffix.
Removing it and what Chantraine calls the the 'obscure sigma morpheme', we are left with [size=150]ὕπ[/size]. He calls this the root of both [size=150]ὑπό[/size] and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size].
I'm not sure I understand quite how one gets 'under' from a root meaning 'on high, above'. Perhaps the latter always calls to mind the former, as in 'under high heaven'....
Evidently, English 'up' is cognate with [size=150]ὑπό[/size].
Cordially,
Paul
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Similarly, but in latin, the word "altus, -a, - um" generally relates to something vertical. Eg. "altus mons" means a high mountain, and "altum flumen" a deep river.Paul wrote: I'm not sure I understand quite how one gets 'under' from a root meaning 'on high, above'. Perhaps the latter always calls to mind the former, as in 'under high heaven'....
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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That's certainly interesting. It sounds like 'altus' has something to do with vertical extension.Kasper wrote:Similarly, but in latin, the word "altus, -a, - um" generally relates to something vertical. Eg. "altus mons" means a high mountain, and "altum flumen" a deep river.
But do Latin 'sub' and 'super' have a common ancestor?
Cordially,
Paul
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I'm just guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if sub, super, u(po\ and u(pe\r all have 1 and the same common ancestor.Paul wrote:
But do Latin 'sub' and 'super' have a common ancestor?
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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If they do, it predates Proto-IE; it seems up, sub, and [size=150]ὑπό[/size] are from the P.I.E. root upo whereas over, super, and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size] are from the root uper.
Nonetheless, the roots themselves are quite similar, and P.I.E. has other examples of similar words having related meanings.
Nonetheless, the roots themselves are quite similar, and P.I.E. has other examples of similar words having related meanings.
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Hi,
This is a bit off-topic, but can any of our native French speakers shed some etymological light on the pair dessous/dessus? Their meaning and appearance seem analogous to [size=150]ὑπό[/size] and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size].
I mean that they look alike but commonly have opposite meanings.
Thanks.
Cordially,
Paul
This is a bit off-topic, but can any of our native French speakers shed some etymological light on the pair dessous/dessus? Their meaning and appearance seem analogous to [size=150]ὑπό[/size] and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size].
I mean that they look alike but commonly have opposite meanings.
Thanks.
Cordially,
Paul
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The very same thought has occurred to me.Thucydides wrote:Sometimes I think we out to have a philology subforum or similar.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Monro ('Grammar of the Homeric Dialect', 1891):
HUPO:
The preposition upo usually means beneath... The original sense, however, seems to have been upwards, as in the superlative 'uptatos' - 'uppermost' (c.f. 'hupsi' - 'aloft', 'huptios' - 'facing upwards'). On this view we can understand whyhupo is not applied (like 'kata') to express downward motion...
HUPER:
...In respect of form 'huper' (for 'huperi', Sanscrit 'upari') is a comparative of 'hupo'; cp. the Superlative 'hupatos' and the Latin 'superus', 'summus'...
HUPO:
The preposition upo usually means beneath... The original sense, however, seems to have been upwards, as in the superlative 'uptatos' - 'uppermost' (c.f. 'hupsi' - 'aloft', 'huptios' - 'facing upwards'). On this view we can understand whyhupo is not applied (like 'kata') to express downward motion...
HUPER:
...In respect of form 'huper' (for 'huperi', Sanscrit 'upari') is a comparative of 'hupo'; cp. the Superlative 'hupatos' and the Latin 'superus', 'summus'...
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Well 1% homeless necromancing is sometimes so interesting isn't it? My etymological dictionary (Bambiniotis') says that
hυπό comes from IE *upo (below, under) cf sanskr. pa, Lat sub (with hard to explain s cf hυπέ?-super), ancient irish fo, gothtic uf, ancient islandic of etc
Same root as hυπέ?, h?πατος, h?ψος etc
in hυπέ? it says
from IE *uper(i) (up, upwards) cf sanskr upari, Lat super (> french sur), armenian ver, ancient Persian upariy, gotthic ufar, ancient german ubir (>german über), engl. upper etc
The meaning of the preposition hυπέ? came from its use for denoting a movement "from down towards up" (bad english there but the best way I can think of giving the exact meaning without getting into the "what does X mean exactly?)
hυπό comes from IE *upo (below, under) cf sanskr. pa, Lat sub (with hard to explain s cf hυπέ?-super), ancient irish fo, gothtic uf, ancient islandic of etc
Same root as hυπέ?, h?πατος, h?ψος etc
in hυπέ? it says
from IE *uper(i) (up, upwards) cf sanskr upari, Lat super (> french sur), armenian ver, ancient Persian upariy, gotthic ufar, ancient german ubir (>german über), engl. upper etc
The meaning of the preposition hυπέ? came from its use for denoting a movement "from down towards up" (bad english there but the best way I can think of giving the exact meaning without getting into the "what does X mean exactly?)