Textkit Logo

Pronunciation

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Pronunciation

Postby Puella Parva » Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:35 pm

I was wondering how exactly are you supposed to pronounce Latin? I can copy the accents of lots of different nationalities, and I was wondering which accent Latin is more like, if any?
phpbb
Puella Parva
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 10:26 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Keesa » Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:52 pm

D'Ooge has some excellent information on the proper pronunciation of each letter in the Latin alphabet; as far as similar languages, probably the Romance languages are the closest, since they share Latin as a root. (Romance languages=French, Spanish, Italian) <br /><br />Keesa
phpbb
Keesa
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:59 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Skylax » Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:29 pm

I would say Italian.
User avatar
Skylax
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 8:18 am
Location: Belgium

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Puella Parva » Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:34 pm

Okay, Thanks!!!! :D
phpbb
Puella Parva
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 10:26 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Episcopus » Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:20 pm

I would also second Italian as closest, with a slight hint of Swedish/Russian hybrid to quell the slightly high pitched Italian accent - then make your voice similar to that of an old evil guy and you have true Latin. <br /><br />http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/<br /><br />is episcopus eum locum reperit ;D causa superbiae episcopi est <br />
phpbb
User avatar
Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Puella Parva » Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:23 pm

Hey, thanks for the link!!
phpbb
Puella Parva
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 10:26 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby benissimus » Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:02 am

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=424;start=0#3366 date=1060543206]<br />then make your voice similar to that of an old evil guy and you have true Latin. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />No!!!!! It can be so beautiful...
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re:Pronunciation

Postby mariek » Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:31 am

<br />This was mentioned on this site a short while ago, it offers pronunciation sound files.<br /><br />Read Latin Right<br />http://www.classicsnet.plus.com/readitright/read_intro.htm<br /><br />I also have this in my notes. It's a pronunciation guide from Benissimus. I think you'll find it helpful. <br /><br /><br />Long vowels are often marked by a macron, or overline in learning texts but not in genuine Latin. These are to help with pronunciation so that you can differentiate between long and short vowels. Short vowels are really just the same as long vowels except that you pronounce them in a "clipped" manner. If you know any of the Romance languages, they are all pretty similar to Latin. For all intents and purposes, these should suffice:<br /><br />Long (with macron line) Short (without macron)<br />A- AH as in "fAther" a- UH as in "galA"<br />E- AY as in "rEin" or "gAte" e- EH as in "pEt"<br />I- EE as in "fEEt" or "Ink" i- IH as in "pIck"<br />O- OH as in "pOke" o- O as in "Or"<br />U- OOH as in "gOOse" or "flUte" u- U as in "pUt"<br /><br />The Greek letter "upsilon" is found in many words adopted by Latin and is pronounced similarly to a French "u" which is quite undescribable unfortunately if you do not already know. If you cannot find someone to demonstrate it for you, I have heard it explained as a mix of (Latin) "I" and "U" or as a "half-assed" "O" . It has both long and short forms just like all the other vowels.<br /><br />There are also a variety of diphthong, letters that sort of are pronounced quickly when they are together and become one syllable.<br /><br />AE or Æ is pronounced like "I" as in "rIde".<br />OE or &#338; is pronounced like "OY" as in "bOY" or "bOIl".<br />EI is pronounced like "AY" as in "rEIn".<br />AU is pronounced like "OW" as in "pOUnd".<br />EU is a rare diphthong; just combine a Latin "E" and "U" and you will have it. Don't use it unless you know it is pronounced as such.<br />UI is a rare diphthong; same as above.<br /><br />There are some older diphthong such as AI, but you probably won't encounter those unless you are studying very old Latin.<br /><br />
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Keesa » Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:29 am

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=424;start=0#3450 date=1060576298]<br />The Greek letter "upsilon" is found in many words adopted by Latin and is pronounced similarly to a French "u" which is quite undescribable unfortunately if you do not already know. If you cannot find someone to demonstrate it for you, I have heard it explained as a mix of (Latin) "I" and "U" or as a "half-assed" "O" . It has both long and short forms just like all the other vowels.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Unfortunately, I do know about the French "u"-it's a killer! Mamma (whose native language is French) has spent whole half hours standing there, just making the sound, while I try to imitate her...so far, I haven't gotten it. <br /><br />Keesa
phpbb
Keesa
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:59 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby ingrid70 » Mon Aug 11, 2003 12:36 pm

[quote author=Keesa link=board=3;threadid=424;start=0#3492 date=1060601397]<br /><br />Unfortunately, I do know about the French "u"-it's a killer! <br /><br />Keesa<br />[/quote]<br /><br />As far as I know, most French people survive it :). <br /><br />Ingrid
phpbb
ingrid70
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:29 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Keesa » Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:46 pm

The French are vaccinated at birth against the effects of the "u" virus.
phpbb
Keesa
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:59 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Milito » Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:48 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=424;start=0#3409 date=1060563757]<br />[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=424;start=0#3366 date=1060543206]<br />then make your voice similar to that of an old evil guy and you have true Latin. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />No!!!!! It can be so beautiful...<br />[/quote]<br /><br />This may be Episcopus' idea of beauty?
phpbb
Milito
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 352
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:01 pm
Location: Various Points in Canada

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Keesa » Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:52 pm

What if there was, somewhere amongst the population of the Roman Emperor, a single human being who wasn't an old evil guy? Would they still sound like one? <br /><br />Keesa
phpbb
Keesa
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:59 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby vinobrien » Mon Aug 11, 2003 2:15 pm

Not if they'd read W.Sidney Allen's "Vox Latina" 8)
phpbb
User avatar
vinobrien
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:05 am
Location: Maidenhead, England

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Episcopus » Mon Aug 11, 2003 2:59 pm

[quote author=Keesa link=board=3;threadid=424;start=0#3492 date=1060601397]<br /><br />Unfortunately, I do know about the French "u"-it's a killer! Mamma (whose native language is French) has spent whole half hours standing there, just making the sound, while I try to imitate her...so far, I haven't gotten it. <br /><br />Keesa<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Ta Mère ;)<br /><br />French "u", as in "plus"? <br /><br />That's like German, "funf" with umlaut. <br /><br />I can't explain it but I can do it yay
phpbb
User avatar
Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby vinobrien » Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:10 pm

Let your lips say "oo" as in "boo"<br />then let the rest of your mouth say "ee" as in Greek <br />and suddenly you sound continental...
phpbb
User avatar
vinobrien
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:05 am
Location: Maidenhead, England

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Keesa » Mon Aug 11, 2003 9:31 pm

It works! It works! I did it, I actually did it! I checked it with Mom, and she says yes, I am pronouncing the French "u" right for the first time in my life! I'm CURED! Thank you, vinobrien! <br /><br />A Very Pleased and Excited, <br /><br />Keesa
phpbb
Keesa
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:59 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:16 pm

Italian pronunciation is not really similar to that of Latin at all.<br /><br />For instance, in Italian, the letter c, followed by an i or an e, makes a ch sound. <br /><br />E.G. Piacere Pee-AH-chay-ray<br />(Latin always pronounces the c as a k)<br />cito - Kit-aw<br /><br />And, in Italian, the three letters "gli" are pronounced as the -lli- in million when two vowels surround the three letters.<br /><br />Also, most of the time, Italian vowels are pronounced long, whereas, vowels in Latin - without a macron - are pronounced short. Besides these, there are many other pronunciation rules in Italian that conflict with those of Latin. <br /><br />Although, it should be noted that, a short time ago, a tacit consensus was reached in regards to Latin pronunciation, wherein Latin-speakers simply decided to pronounce Latin according to the pronunciation rules of the language predominantly spoken in their region. Nevertheless, I prefer to use classical Latin pronunciation (Likewise, I don't use the letter "u" in writing Latin because classical Latin used the "v" to produce both a w-sound and a u-sound.)
phpbb
Lumen_et_umbra
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:12 am
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Keesa » Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:04 pm

Is the Latin "c" ever soft? When I read "adolescens" or "glacies" (both from "Excelsior", Latin for Beginners, BLD), my mouth wants to make those "c"s soft, not hard-"adolessens", not "adoleskens" and "glasies" rather than "glakies". Is that ever right, or must it always be hard? <br /><br />Keesa
phpbb
Keesa
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:59 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:14 pm

Wheelock's Latin 6th Edition predicates the pronunciation rule (id est, c is always hard) on ancient transcriptions from Latin to Greek. So, yes, as far as I know, the Latin c is always pronounced hard, unfortunately.
phpbb
Lumen_et_umbra
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:12 am
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Keesa » Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:18 pm

Thank you! I wish it could be soft( :() but I'm glad to know how it's supposed to be pronounced, so that I can do it right from the very beginning. <br /><br />Keesa
phpbb
Keesa
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:59 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby benissimus » Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:31 am

[quote author=Lumen_et_umbra link=board=3;threadid=424;start=15#3585 date=1060640188]<br />Italian pronunciation is not really similar to that of Latin at all.<br /><br />For instance, in Italian, the letter c, followed by an i or an e, makes a ch sound. <br /><br />E.G. Piacere Pee-AH-chay-ray<br />(Latin always pronounces the c as a k)<br />cito - Kit-aw<br /><br />And, in Italian, the three letters "gli" are pronounced as the -lli- in million when two vowels surround the three letters.<br /><br />Also, most of the time, Italian vowels are pronounced long, whereas, vowels in Latin - without a macron - are pronounced short. Besides these, there are many other pronunciation rules in Italian that conflict with those of Latin. <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Very true, but the vowels are still almost exactly the same and most of the consonants haven't changed too drastically. I actually think that Spanish has preserved Latin better than Italian, but that is open to debate. The main thing is that Italian or Spanish sound more like Latin than any other language does.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Tue Aug 12, 2003 4:46 am

Well, if we are attempting to determine which language's pronunciation is least disparate to that of Latin, then I would be inclined to submit to you that Romanian or some Russian language's pronunciation is thus (in my opinion).<br /><br />Spanish and Italian, while still very close, are both equally dissimilar in their pronunciations compared to the other's and compared to Latin's. <br /><br />Gemelo - Hey-MAY-low Spanish (H sound)<br />Giacomo - Jeeh-ah-CO-mo Italian (Soft G sound)<br />Genus - Gen-us Latin (Hard G)
phpbb
Lumen_et_umbra
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:12 am
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re:Pronunciation

Postby benissimus » Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:05 am

Ha! I think it sounds somewhat like Russian as well...
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re:Pronunciation

Postby vinobrien » Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:43 am

The real problems for most people are the v c and g. Greek transcriptions tell us that these should be pronounced as w k and gh but the natural desire to pronounce a consonantal u as v and to soften c and g before i and e obviously affected Latin speakers as that is the way the consonants ended up being pronounced.<br /><br />The palatalisation of consonants in Italian, gl and gn, is reproduced in other romance languages e.g. nh in Portuguese or n(tilde) in Spanish. <br /><br />The mythical history of the ceceo espanol is well documented but is probably a further development of the softening c like the ch sound in Italian. Remember Cicero died a good two millenia ago.
phpbb
User avatar
vinobrien
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:05 am
Location: Maidenhead, England

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Episcopus » Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:54 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=424;start=15#3642 date=1060664726]<br />Ha! I think it sounds somewhat like Russian as well...<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Oh finally when some one else says it you agree but hear not Episcopum!<br /><br />Italian accent is more like Latin than that of Spanish by far.
phpbb
User avatar
Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Tue Aug 12, 2003 8:46 pm

¿Qué es "Ceceo Español" este del que has hablado?<br /><br />What is this "ceco español" of which you have spoken?<br /><br />Jamás he oído hablar de esa cosa.
phpbb
Lumen_et_umbra
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:12 am
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re:Pronunciation

Postby Keesa » Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:20 am

[quote author=Lumen_et_umbra link=board=3;threadid=424;start=15#3639 date=1060663605]<br />Well, if we are attempting to determine which language's pronunciation is least disparate to that of Latin, then I would be inclined to submit to you that Romanian or some Russian language's pronunciation is thus (in my opinion).<br />[/quote]<br /><br />My older brother speaks Russian-how convenient! I'll just get him to teach me how to pronounce it...if he can take time from his inestimably busy college schedule for his little sister! ;)<br /><br />Keesa
phpbb
Keesa
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:59 pm


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Shenoute and 41 guests