Ian_M_Graham wrote:Has anyone on the board discovered as I did that the Septuagint is NOT just a bad translation of the Hebrew as has been taught for two thousand years?
Or has my exposure to teachers just been proven to have been limited?
I have always heard that the Septuagint is just a bad translation of the Hebrew, resulting in several rescisions in its first few hundred years of existence.
I have done a study of the Greek and Hebrew, (Not an expert by any stretch of the imagination) and have discovered a vast vocabulary difference between the Hebrew and its alleged "Greek translation."
Take for example the Hebrew word tzuwr, translated into English as "rock," "He is our rock," But the Greek does not translate to Petra, Petros, lithos, or any other kind of rock. It presents a simple statement "as for God his works are true..." [Deu 32:4]
I can well understand the glee of a pagan hillman as a Hebrew appears over the hill proclaiming "God is a rock;" The hillman would join himself to this Hebrew exclaiming loudly, "Yes, so is our rock a God, and that tree, and that river, and etc..."
I can well understand why the Greek does not "translate" tzuwr in that verse.
Further evidence is repleat in scripture, but I do not want to overburden any one with the study. Just wondered if anyone else has made the discovery? It does get lonesom in research.
cweb255 wrote:Shalom yad, but did you ignore my entire post? Now forgive me, I'm still learning Hebrew, but the DSS evidence far outweighs the traditional (bad translation) arguement.
Chris
cweb255 wrote:I disagree Thomas, the best translation is as literal as possible. Imagine if the stone referred to a particular stone, an allusion to something even more classical, and by giving the meaning, you lose a layer, a valuable layer at that.
yadfothgildloc wrote:Ian, a question. What's you're transliteration scheme? You're the only person I've ever seen to transliterate "צור" as "Tzuwr."
ThomasGR wrote:No one will ever understand anything under this "stone" or "rock", like no one did ever understand why Apostle Peter was called so, though Jesus (and the Evangelists who reported this) made so much effort to explain us. Like Geoff has pointed so well, the best translation is when one renders correctly the spirit of the message, and not a word by word transliteration.
annis wrote:Two questions:
Should I move this thread to the Koine board?
Is this a language or a doctrinal question?
None. I simply accomodate Strong's concordance and Bagster's Englishman's Concordance and Bagster's Septuagint in parrallel; plus Hendrickson's Interlinear Bible.
But that oversimplifies any proccess involving the study I have described.
Tzuwr or tzoor are equivalent presentations depending upon which scholar you select.
And I am no scholar, nor expert even in English.
I am just sharing something I have discovered about the Septuagint.
annis wrote:Two questions:
Should I move this thread to the Koine board?
Is this a language or a doctrinal question?
Ian_M_Graham wrote:Jesus pointed out the contrast between Peter and the petra upon which the church was to be established. Even Peter identified Jesus as the Petra of offence in 1 Pet 2:8 with which Paul concurs by quoting the Isaiah 8:14 reference in Rom 9:33 and applying it to Jesus.
That is what the first Christians understood and expected from [h]im and in that perspective, this passage is really obscure to a Greek of his times and beyond any comprehension. As yad mentioned before, it might make sense to the Jews all the metaphers about stones and rocks, inside the Hebrew culture, but in the outsinde world and to the Greeks and Romans it was plain rubbish. You have to explain asll the time what is meant under rock and stone, at least.
Ian_M_Graham wrote:It will surprise you to find out just how deeply the Greekspeaking world DID understand the analogies and metaphors of the Septuagint old testament. They became Christians on the basis of that understanding and proceeded to whip the Jews in debate, who were using the Hebrew scrolls from the temple as their basis for understanding. The Greek debaters beat the Hebrew debaters every time. Then the recensions began to make the Greek "more in accord with the Hebrew" and the Greeks began to loose the debates. They could not deal in the Hebrew. And for the moderator, that is not doctirne, that is historical fact.
ThomasGR wrote:Back to the topic,
the real purpose of my post this time is the crucial question:
“no there is no stone”,
What does one understand with this expression?
Or what is the sense of this metaphor?
ThomasGR wrote:It is taken form first page of this thread, a quote by Ian:
"Is there a Elowahh beside me? Yea, there is no tzuwr; I know not any" [Isa 44:8 Hebrew]
Where I made my own word-by-word translation:
"Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no stone; I know not any"
I do not understand the last sentence and this “stone” passage.
cweb255 wrote:The Greek speakers were using the Septuagint always. The recensions made it closer to Hebrew. I think the historical quality of this is that the New Testament used primarily the LXX for its relative quotes, and the pMT (protoMasoretic Text) was so radically different, that when certain Christians (including Origen) set out to "fix" the text, Christianity began to lose some of its most promising basis i.e. the Old Testament.
ThomasGR wrote:It is taken form first page of this thread, a quote by Ian:
"Is there a Elowahh beside me? Yea, there is no tzuwr; I know not any" [Isa 44:8 Hebrew]
Where I made my own word-by-word translation:
"Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no stone; I know not any"
I do not understand the last sentence and this “stone” passage.
cweb255 wrote:How can you guys see the passage as referring to the Lord? In verse six Isaiah has the Lord speaking and continues to speak until 23. God declares that there is no God beside him in 6, there is not a rock beside him in 8, and the rest until 23 is about the foolishness of worshipping graven images. The Rock is referring to the Pagan rock.
adz000 wrote:You are ridiculous. This is irrelevant. Please post somewhere else.
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