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eu and eu

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eu and eu

Postby mingshey » Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:02 am

lesson 95

This might be too obvious for a question. But just to make it sure, in lesson 95 of Pharr [face=SPIonic]e)u/[/face] is breathed at [face=SPIonic]e[/face], while accented at [face=SPIonic]u[/face]. And this Homeric form of [face=SPIonic]eu][/face] means it is pronounced like eh-ü(u with Umlaut) rather than eh-oo?
And [face=SPIonic]e)uknh/midej[/face] like eh-ü-kneh-mi-des?
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Postby chad » Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:35 am

hi mingshey, that all looks right to me at any rate :) e)u/ is 2 syllables, and upsilon on its own like this had the sound of u in tu (i write it ü like you), but upsilon as the final vowel of a diphthong kept the original oo sound: smyth talks about this in s24:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... ut=&loc=24
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Postby mingshey » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:11 pm

Thanks, chad. I've been sleeping on this thing and now I have listened to Homeric recitals that are once or more times posted on the "Outside Links of interest" board. Both in Stanley Lombardo's Iliad reading and a nearly-anonymous recital of the Demodokos' song in Iliad 8.267-299 [face=SPIonic]u[/face] sound is rendered like "oo" as in too. They pronounce [face=SPIonic]qu/gatra[/face] like t-hoo-ga-tra, for example. Pharr also says its original pronunciation was like that. And I'm wondering if I shoud unlearn my ü and relearn it as 'oo' when I practice and learn the Iliad clips in Pharr. :? It's not a problem and I'm feeling eh-ü is quite a tongue-twister when I try to read Iliad in proper meters, but my tongue is already used to ü it needs time to change the old habit.
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Postby annis » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:33 pm

mingshey wrote:It's not a problem and I'm feeling eh-ü is quite a tongue-twister when I try to read Iliad in proper meters, but my tongue is already used to ü it needs time to change the old habit.


When the upsilon was the final part of a diphthong it wasn't fronted, that is, it was u not ü (the last is /y/ in SAMPA/IPA).
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby mingshey » Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:02 pm

annis wrote:
mingshey wrote:It's not a problem and I'm feeling eh-ü is quite a tongue-twister when I try to read Iliad in proper meters, but my tongue is already used to ü it needs time to change the old habit.


When the upsilon was the final part of a diphthong it wasn't fronted, that is, it was u not ü (the last is /y/ in SAMPA/IPA).


Indeed, William. I used to pronounce [face=SPIonic]eu[/face] as in [face=SPIonic]feu=[/face] like e+u. But there are [face=SPIonic]e)uknh/midej[/face] and [face=SPIonic]e)u/[/face] stuff, in which the breathing suggests they are not diphthongs but a series of separate monophthongs. But, if they are the ancestors of diphthongs and its time is so ancient as the time [face=SPIonic]u[/face] was always pronounced u rather than ü, it would make almost no difference. :)
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Postby ximo » Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:09 pm

Hello you all. I would like to explain something about the pronounciation of the ypsilon in Ancient Greek. If the sound is used as a vowel, that is, not formig a diphtong, it is pronounced similar to a French u, a sound between the u and the i /ü/. But if the ypsilon forms a diphtong, it sounds like a u, so eu /eu/, au /au/ and the exception is ou /u/. In Homer the diphtong eu can be pronounced in two different sounds, if there's diaeresis and not a diphtong. The situation of the spiritus and the accent indicates when the two vowells are pronounced together or separately.
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