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Help!

Postby Keesa » Fri Aug 08, 2003 12:08 pm

Ouch. I've found a sentence (in my grammar book, no less) that I can't seem to translate properly. The sentence, on pg. 29 of D'Ooge's "Latin for Beginners", reads like this: <br /><br />Ferae terrarum pugnant. <br /><br />My translation is, "The earths' beasts fight", which just sounds strange, somehow. Is that right? If not, what am I missing? <br /><br />Thanks. <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Help!

Postby Skylax » Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:03 pm

It is page 19, it isn't?<br /><br />Your translation is right. The sentence is a bit far-fetched. Dr D. spoke first about ferae silvae, "the beasts of the forrest" (genitive singular), now the tries to insert an other word than silva in the genitive plural, hence ferae terrarum "the beasts of the world". Now, what could they do ? ferae terrarum are aggressive, aren't they ? so pugnant is an obvious conclusion. It's hard to compose exercises !
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Re:Help!

Postby Keesa » Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:09 pm

The thing that was confusing me, I guess, was that "terrarum". Isn't that the plural genitive? The beasts of the earths? Do they belong to more than one earth(world)? Or have I managed to mix up my cases again? <br /><br />(I think it's actually page 29.) <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Help!

Postby Milito » Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:29 pm

"Terrarum" is genitive plural. But "Terra" doesn't mean "the world" necessarily. It can mean "land","territory" or "country" as well. (Or "ground", for that matter....)<br /><br />So you could also translate it as "The wild beasts of the lands fight". (Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!)<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Help!

Postby Skylax » Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:34 pm

Terrae (plural) may mean "the world" (singular), i. e. "the emerged lands" (if you say it so in English).<br /><br />So Pacem in terris "Peace on Earth"... (First words of an Encyclical by Pope John XXXIII)<br /><br />(it is page 29 of the dowloaded document and page 19, Arab numerals, of the book itself)
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Re:Help!

Postby Keesa » Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:37 pm

Ahhh, now I get it! Thank you! And now I can finish today's Latin lesson. ;D <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Help!

Postby mariek » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:32 pm

[quote author=Skylax link=board=3;threadid=402;start=0#3119 date=1060349679]<br />(it is page 29 of the dowloaded document and page 19, Arab numerals, of the book itself)<br />[/quote]<br /><br />This page discrepancy threw me off too when I first started BLD. The actual page numbers are offset by 10 from the page numbers in the Acrobat document.<br />
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Re:Help!

Postby Keesa » Fri Aug 08, 2003 4:18 pm

So, from now on, I should not only specify the page, but whether I'm using the Acrobat page or the book page? ;D
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Re:Help!

Postby mariek » Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:50 pm

<br />I think you should be consistent with whichever page number you choose to use. That way we'll all get to know that you are always referring to the Acrobat page or the actual book page. Flip flopping between the two would be highly confusing. Personally, I choose to use the actual page number. I don't know why. Maybe it'll allow people to refer to the same page if they happen to have a different document (i.e. not the same PDF document from Textkit) where their page numbers don't match our Acrobat page numbers.<br /><br />What I'd suggest it mentioning the Exercise and/or page number in the subject of your post. This would really help other learners find solutions to the same question. So someone else who is also working on your exercise 39 on page 19 can easily zero in on your message for information.<br /><br />Also, if you haven't already figured this out... you can do searches on this site. Just click on the search button above, which will take you here http://www.textkit.com/greek_latin_forum/index.php?board=;action=search
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Re:Help!

Postby Episcopus » Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:54 pm

[quote author=Skylax link=board=3;threadid=402;start=0#3119 date=1060349679]<br />So Pacem in terris "Peace on Earth"... (First words of an Encyclical by Pope John XXXIII)<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />vidite novos episcopos! :o ii sunt non grata ei episcopo ;D<br /><br />no, only joking, but I doubt that there be peace! :'(<br /><br />So terrae/terrarum can mean world? I checked my exercise book and I put terrae...<br /><br />With sincere reference to 'Pacem in terris' does that actually make sense? Should he have put a subjunctive 'may there be'? to show something that isn't (by far) true? <br /><br />Is that 'sit' ? <br /><br />
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Re:Help!

Postby bingley » Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:37 am

Plutarch says in his life of Demosthenes (the Greek text doesn't appear to be on the internet, so here it is in the Dryden translation):<br /><br /> it was very late, and in the decline of my age, before I applied myself to the reading of Latin authors. Upon which that which happened to me, may seem strange, though it be true; for it was not so much by the knowledge of words, that I came to the understanding of things, as by my experience of things I was enabled to follow the meaning of words. <br /><br />I'm starting to think textbook writers compose their exercises to make sure we're not doing this. ;D ;D
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Re:Help!

Postby benissimus » Sat Aug 09, 2003 5:39 am

[quote author=Keesa link=board=3;threadid=402;start=0#3105 date=1060344511]<br />Ouch. I've found a sentence (in my grammar book, no less) that I can't seem to translate properly. The sentence, on pg. 29 of D'Ooge's "Latin for Beginners", reads like this: <br /><br />Ferae terrarum pugnant. <br /><br />My translation is, "The earths' beasts fight", which just sounds strange, somehow. Is that right? If not, what am I missing? <br /><br />Thanks. <br /><br />Keesa<br />[/quote]<br /><br />You could also translate it as "The earth's beasts are fighting" if it just doesn't hit your ear right.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re:Help!

Postby Milito » Sat Aug 09, 2003 8:09 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=402;start=0#3148 date=1060379657]<br />With sincere reference to 'Pacem in terris' does that actually make sense? Should he have put a subjunctive 'may there be'? to show something that isn't (by far) true? <br /><br />Is that 'sit' ? <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />I believe that this might be yet another of those cases where the indispensible verb "sum" is ignored since it's the main verb in a thought...... If you happen to come across a sentence without a verb in it, chances are some form of "sum" is assumed to be there... However, it might also be the case that Skylax only quoted the first three words, to illustrate the use of a plural of "terra", and that later in the sentence (depending on how it goes....) another verb appears.<br /><br />I think that "sit" would work for "Let there be", but I believe you can also use "fiat" (subjunctive of "fio" - to exist/become.... sort of similar to "sum", but not quite. I know that "Fiat lux" mean "Let there be light", as in, "Let light exist"...<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Help!

Postby Keesa » Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:24 am

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=402;start=0#3178 date=1060407555]<br /><br />You could also translate it as "The earth's beasts are fighting" if it just doesn't hit your ear right.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Now, that sounds even better...
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Re:Help!

Postby Skylax » Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:02 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=402;start=0#3148 date=1060379657]<br /><br />So terrae/terrarum can mean world? I checked my exercise book and I put terrae...<br /><br />With sincere reference to 'Pacem in terris' does that actually make sense? Should he have put a subjunctive 'may there be'? to show something that isn't (by far) true? <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Excuse me for not having been more explicit... I wanted only to show a phrase in which terrae means more or less "the world". To express "World", the Latin uses commonly orbis, orbis, 3rd declention, masculine, meaning "the circle", or, more completely, orbis terrarum "the circle of (emerged) lands. It is seen as a circle because, when you look around you, you seem to be in the centre of a big circle. It is an archaic way of thinking. In terris is often used by Cicero meaning "on Earth" (implying nor "under the Earth", what would be "in the Underworld", neither "in Heaven", among the Gods). In this case, terrae means "normal world".<br /><br />mundus, i is "the Universe", thus including stars etc., although it was something completely different for the Ancient than it is for us now.<br /><br />About Pacem in terris, I ought to say that the title of an Encyclical is always formed by the first words, disregarding the grammatical "completeness".<br /><br />Here the whole sentence, from http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_ ... em_lt.html<br /><br />PACEM IN TERRIS, quam homines universi cupidissime quovis tempore appetiverunt, condi confirmarique non posse constat, nisi ordine, quem Deus constituit, sancte servato.<br /><br />"It appears that Peace on Earth—which man throughout the ages has so longed for and sought after—can never be established, never guaranteed, except by the diligent observance of the divinely established order."<br /><br />The construction is : Constat pacem ... non posse ...<br />Pacem is singular accusative, as beeing a kind of direct object of the main verb while being simultaneously subject of the infinitive posse "can". (It is called an infinitive clause : don't worry if you haven't learned it yet. It will come quietly.)
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Re:Help!

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:30 am

If one wanted to say something to the effect of "let there be peace on Earth," the word for light would have to be in the nominative case and not in the genitive.<br /><br />e.g.: PA(macron)X IN TERRI(macron)S FIAT.<br /> Pax in terris fiat.
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