Aoidoi - Haiku

[Kasper]

After looking around on Will's website for a while I saw this haiku page. It seemed really interesting and I thought I'd give it a shot. The problem is I'm not too sure on my scansion. Since nothing teaches a lesson like public ridicule I thought I'd just post what I've come up with and let you guys walz over me. I've attempted to stick to this meter:


- u u - -
- - u u - u -
- u u - -

Ergo:

h)/lqe de\ u(/dwr
h( gh~ katapo/tnizei
kai\ me\n a)/nhcei

I must say I like how the first line is in the past, second in the present and the third in the future, plus the doubt that could be put on the subject of the 3rd line, i.e. the water or the earth.
However, I'm particularly nervous about the "u" in "Udwr" being long, although I think I have seen this somewhere, and the "i" in "katapotnIzei" being short, because I fear the zeta might count as double, which I think would make the iota long...

anyway: a)/gete kri/nete!

[chad]

hi kasper, that reminds me of the anacreontic

http://www.aoidoi.org/texts/anacreon/anea-21.php

someone will be able to give you better comments, but... i've only seen u(/dwr with short upsilon, maybe change de\ to me\n?, kataponti/zei (and iota is long here), maybe you could work au)= into the start of the last line and leave out the me/n, changing it around a bit? it's a very nice image

[Kasper]

Thanks Chad! I've never seen me\n first, before de\, I thought they pretty much always went together? How could I put it in the first line, and how would that make the upsilon long?

by the way, I had a look at the iliad, and in lines 13 and 15 of book 1 the upsilon is scanned as long - right?

as for the iota - its back to the drawing board....

[annis]

After looking around on Will's website for a while I saw this haiku page.

People do read that! Amazing.

h)/lqe de\ u(/dwr
h( gh~ katapo/tnizei
kai\ me\n a)/nhcei

There are a few difficulties here, some of which you already identified. Zeta does close a syllable, and the length of the upsilon of ὕδωρ.

There are three other things I'd change here.

First, δέ unelided before a word starting with a vowel is not so good. In prose we don't bother to write elisions, but they were probably there. In verse, we have to write them. So that eats up one syllable.

You should take Chad's suggestion, and change δέ to μέν if you want both of them in the poem. Or, since it's at the start, I might go with something like this (assuming I'm interpreting the poem's razo correctly): ἦλθε τὸ κῦμα. Of course, this requires we take each line by the line, and allow ourselves the license of brevis in longa. Since we're inventing it, why not?

Second (and ignoring the scanning for the moment) I think there's a transitivity problem with καταποντίζω. Based on L&S I'm inclined to take this verb to be transitive, and so ἡ γῆ κ. would mean that the earth is drowning something, not that it is being drowned. I would either change the case of γῆ to accusative, or make the verb passive. Say, τὴν γῆν καταπόντισαν (aor. part., fixes scanning, but καταποντίζων keeps the syllable count).

Finally, it's a bit of a surprise to find μέν last.

EDIT: *sigh* agreement problem fixed

[Kasper]

Thanks Will! This is a bloody difficult puzzle!! anyway, after some amendments, how about:


h)=lqe me\n ku=ma
- u u - -
th\n gh\n katalamba/nwn
- - u u - u -
kau)t) a)n a)nh)/cei
- u u - -


can i get away with kai auth elided as it is (or as I think it is)?
I thought the participle would be better than all the active verbs...

the reason I would still have liked to use udwr is that, despite obvious appearance, this is not inspired by the tsunami, but by the recent weather in Melbourne - most rain in a day on record, we are relatively flooded.

[annis]

Thanks Will! This is a bloody difficult puzzle!!

It can be.

h)=lqe me\n ku=ma
- u u - -

Since μὲν is a closed syllable here, it scans long.

kau)t) a)n a)nh)/cei
- u u - -

can i get away with kai auth elided as it is (or as I think it is)?

The crasis I believe is fine, but not the loss of eta that way. In epic, elegy and very rarely choral verse a final long vowel or diphthong may be scanned short if it is followed immediately by another vowel. But you can't elide it away.

the reason I would still have liked to use udwr is that, despite obvious appearance, this is not inspired by the tsunami, but by the recent weather in Melbourne - most rain in a day on record, we are relatively flooded.

I wasn't sure about that.

Maybe could try to work in some form of (all upsilons long for this root) ὕετος, ου, ὁ "rain," ὕω "to rain," ὕομαι "get rained on." Woodhouse may have some more choices, too.

[Kasper]

Thanks again Will

Since me\n is a closed syllable here, it scans long.


The crasis I believe is fine, but not the loss of eta that way. In epic, elegy and very rarely choral verse a final long vowel or diphthong may be scanned short if it is followed immediately by another vowel. But you can't elide it away.

well, then if I change me\n to de\, and take out the a)n in the last line, that should do it:

h)=lqe de\ ku=ma
th\n gh\n katalamba/nwn
kau)th\ a)/nh)cei


(I'll just pretend it's tsunami related and start a new one - don't worry, I won't keep on bothering you with this!)

[annis]

well, then if I change me\n to de\, and take out the a)n in the last line, that should do it:

h)=lqe de\ ku=ma
th\n gh\n katalamba/nwn
kau)th\ a)/nh)cei

That does it, indeed (now, is that an H)= indeed, or a MH/N indeed, or a GE indeed or an A)/RA indeed...)

There are a few poems we have that have the first clause starting off with δέ and this sometimes makes critics think we're missing part of the poem. But it might not mean that - I incline to the view that it does not necessarily - so I'm not going to complain about it here.

(I'll just pretend it's tsunami related and start a new one - don't worry, I won't keep on bothering you with this!)

Don't worry about bothering me. When I get bothered I'll let someone else answer. Just keep in mind that a delay in answering might represent frantic research.

[Kasper]

succes!! (albeit moderate)

That does it, indeed (now, is that an H)= indeed, or a MH/N indeed, or a GE indeed or an A)/RA indeed...)

again I must request an explanation... I'm unaware of the potential classifications of 'indeed'.

[annis]

again I must request an explanation... I'm unaware of the potential classifications of 'indeed'.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic without letting anyone else in on the context. I've been thinking about certain particles recently. A whole mass of them get a list of meanings, and "indeed" and "truly" seem to figure prominently in those lists. This annoys me.

[Kasper]

Let me know if this gets annoying, but how about this one:


h)~ros i)o/ntos,
ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˉ
ne/ous me\n a)lwme/nas
˘ ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˘ ˉ
nu~n de\ me/nein dei~.
ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˉ

I'm intending me/ein to mean something like "stand on their own", not sure if this is the right word for it...

[chad]

hi kasper, i really like your poems, such nice images

i'm just not sure if you can use me/n and de/ like this, Will will be able to let you know... if i reword it to show how i read it:

h)~ros i)o/ntos (gen absolute), dei~ nu~n a)lwme/nas ne/ous me/nein.

you wanted to contrast the idea of straying/wandering girls in a)lwme/nas with standing firm in me/nein, is that right? i've only seen me/n and de/ used to contrast clauses, not particular words in 1 clause... maybe change me/n to pri\n as adverb, and change de\ to ge.

[Kasper]

i'm just not sure if you can use me/n and de/ like this, Will will be able to let you know... if i reword it to show how i read it:

h)~ros i)o/ntos (gen absolute), dei~ nu~n a)lwme/nas ne/ous me/nein.

you wanted to contrast the idea of straying/wandering girls in a)lwme/nas with standing firm in me/nein, is that right? i've only seen me/n and de/ used to contrast clauses, not particular words in 1 clause... maybe change me/n to pri\n as adverb, and change de\ to ge.

Thanks Chad! I'm very much a beginner at this and any help is much appreciated. About 'ge', I'm really unsure how to use this word, or its meaning... I used men and de to get the contrast of wandering to standing, would prin and ge give me this?

Apart from that, I suppose I should make 'ne/ous' into 'ne/as' or, alternatively, 'alwme/nas' into 'alwmenous'...

[annis]

Thanks Chad! I'm very much a beginner at this and any help is much appreciated. About 'ge', I'm really unsure how to use this word, or its meaning... I used men and de to get the contrast of wandering to standing, would prin and ge give me this?

I share Chad's concern about men..de.. in a single clause like that. You could use πρίν in its original guise, an adverb "before, formerly", but you could also use ποτέ (enclitic), which will elide and not mess up the meter.

γέ is a selecting particle, and has the sense of "at least." I think it would work here pretty well.

It's hard in such tight spaces to produce Greekish Greek.

Soon you'll be producing runs of Aeolic lines.

[Kasper]

I share Chad's concern about men..de.. in a single clause like that. You could use πρίν in its original guise, an adverb "before, formerly", but you could also use ποτέ (enclitic), which will elide and not mess up the meter.

γέ is a selecting particle, and has the sense of "at least." I think it would work here pretty well.

It's hard in such tight spaces to produce Greekish Greek.

Soon you'll be producing runs of Aeolic lines.

Thanks again Will! Pote is a great suggestion! My Greek may not (yet) be Greekish, but if these are all the comments you have for that one, plus Chad's compliment, I actually have the courage to post one last one :

nu/x a)pocwrw=n
ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˉ
e)la/mpeto h(liw=|
˘ ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˘ ˉ
h)=ri e)ruqrw=|
ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˉ

No more!!

[annis]

Hiatus!

[annis]

So, I ran with the seasonal idea (my season this time), and the colon you're using for the middle line:

ὁρῶν νιφόεν τέγος πάσχω νιφάδας κακῶς·   ἀλλ’ ἤλυθον οἰκίην βεβαίην, μενῶ δὲ παρ’ ἑστίῃ θερμαινόμενος πυρί   οἴνου τε ποτῆρι τοῖς θ’   (ομήρου.

x - u u - u -
x - u u - u -
x - u u - u - u - -