Textkit Logo

homeric vocabulary frequency

Are you reading Homeric Greek or studying Homeric Greek with Pharr's Homeric Greek - A Book For Beginners? Here's where you can meet other Homeric Greek learners. Use this board for all things Homeric Greek.

homeric vocabulary frequency

Postby bernardo » Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:52 am

In Homeric vocabularies by William Bishop Owen and Edgar Johnson Goodspeed the authors list words by the frequency they occur in the Illiad and the Odyssey; so that you have a list of words emphasizing which ones are used the most, or which ones are more important to memorize. Is there such a list available on-line?
bernardo
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:11 am
Location: rio de janeiro

Vocabulary Frequency

Postby swiftnicholas » Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:53 pm

The Owen and Goodspeed book is very handy, and small enough to be slipped in your pocket and carried around. But the Perseus (.org) website has a feature that allows you to form your own vocabulary lists, from any author or book or chapter, with great flexibility. You can fashion your own criteria, and decide how many words to list (ie. top 10%, 20%....100%). Perseus offers other tools too: commentaries, dictionaries, and grammars. But the core of the site is a library of Greek literature that can be electronically searched, and in which each word is hyperlinked to a definition, grammatical information, and endless textual statistics. Personally, I prefer reading and handling books, but Perseus is a great resource for identifying (or narrowing down) unusual forms. Sometimes, and especially with Homer, the hyperlinked information seems unable to positively identify a form, but it is often helpful and always free. I am also excited and grateful to have found this forum of interesting and motivated people!
swiftnicholas
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:04 pm
Location: New York

Postby Kaj » Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:30 am

Kaj
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:13 am

Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:14 am

One thing I am not very clear about the Owen book is, does it just list the words, or does it also give excercises/drills. Either way, I doubt I'll get it, but just as curiousity.
User avatar
GlottalGreekGeek
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 3:37 am
Location: Mountain View

Postby annis » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:15 pm

GlottalGreekGeek wrote:One thing I am not very clear about the Owen book is, does it just list the words, or does it also give excercises/drills.


Just lists. Frankly the vocabulary tool at Perseus is more useful, if less portable.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Postby psilord » Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:15 am

Out of curiosity, is there a lexicon of homeric vocabulary per book for the the Illiad and the Odyssey? Something like "here is all of the vocabulary in book 1 of the Illiad" with the vocabulary list for the book 2 being the *new* vocabulary with respect to the book 1 and so on?

Thanks.
psilord
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:38 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Postby annis » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:18 pm

psilord wrote:Out of curiosity, is there a lexicon of homeric vocabulary per book for the the Illiad and the Odyssey? Something like "here is all of the vocabulary in book 1 of the Illiad" with the vocabulary list for the book 2 being the *new* vocabulary with respect to the book 1 and so on?


I've never heard of anything like that.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Postby psilord » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:21 am

Interesting. It seems like a reasonable thing to have and prevents you from constantly looking through large dictionaries for a word when you can have a small dictionary for the words in the book you are reading. I suppose at the back of the dictionary you can have all words in alphabetical order with what book they came first in so you can look them up if you are totally lost. I actually spend the time to memorize all of the words in each Pharr lesson, and if I could do this per book, I would.
psilord
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:38 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Postby annis » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:35 am

psilord wrote:Interesting. It seems like a reasonable thing to have and prevents you from constantly looking through large dictionaries for a word when you can have a small dictionary for the words in the book you are reading.


Well, now, this is different. If you download the Minckwitz Odyssey 12 reader, the full vocabulary of that is at the end of the book.

But this progressive accumulation scheme you present would be difficult. Beginner's books do not typically start on line 1 and go through to the end, especially for the Epics which are, well, epic in scope. You get selections, and the Minckwitz book - which dumps you down into the middle, in book 12 - was designed to be a first reader after your year of grammar.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:34 am

The Pharr A group is almost done. Perhaps those who are progressing to Iliad B might record each time they have to look up something in a lexicon, and from that someone could compile a list of words/forms in the order they appear in Iliad B which a graduate of Pharr may need explained to them.

EDIT : Upon the completion of Pharr A, will there, be another session with Minckwitz's Odyssey M, or even a session with Iliad B?
User avatar
GlottalGreekGeek
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 3:37 am
Location: Mountain View

Postby swiftnicholas » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:43 pm

I think psilord's suggestion is very interesting. Perhaps the Perseus vocabulary tool could be changed slightly to allow for such a progressive word list. You could compile "Vocabulary for Iliad 2" minus "Vocabulary for Iliad 1"; or "Vocabulary for Iliad 3" minus "Vocabulary for Iliad 1 and 2". It wouldn't even have to be in book order, or even within the same author. For instance, if somebody wanted to read Odyssey 12 after finishing Iliad 1, they could compile a list of "Vocabulary for Odyssey 12" minus "Vocabulary for Iliad 1". Or even, "Vocabulary for Plato's Apology" minus "Vocabulary for Iliad 1" (I'm not sure this would be extremely useful, but it wouldn't require a more complicated system). But I know nothing about computer programming, so perhaps there is a good reason why this can't be done?

I suppose you could print separate vocabulary lists for Book 1 and Book 2 in alphabetical order, and compare them physically, marking the new words in Book 2, and then make flashcards or something. But this would be time consuming even for Book 2, and would probably be ridiculous to continue any further in that manner.
swiftnicholas
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:04 pm
Location: New York

Postby swiftnicholas » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:49 pm

You could print off a vocabulary list from Perseus for whatever book you are reading, in alphabetical order, and it would be a small dictionary for the book you are reading. This would work great if you just want a list to consult, rather than a list of new words to memorize.
swiftnicholas
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:04 pm
Location: New York

Postby psilord » Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:00 pm

If I were to actually do this, I'd figure out the markup of perseus, write some perl, and datamine the information I needed right out of the text on the web pages. I've seriously thought about it since I appear to be pretty proficient at simply memorizing large vocabulary lists. I would just want the lists I memorize to be context specific to what I happen to be reading.
psilord
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:38 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Postby annis » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:47 am

GlottalGreekGeek wrote:The Pharr A group is almost done.


We have just under half of the first book left to finish! Pharr-a will be going for a few more months.

Upon the completion of Pharr A, will there, be another session with Minckwitz's Odyssey M, or even a session with Iliad B?


No plans have been made about this, nor have we discussed it really, so I'm not sure what we'll do.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:52 am

annis wrote:We have just under half of the first book left to finish! Pharr-a will be going for a few more months.


*looks at the schedule again* Huh, tis true. I think I somehow got the Feburary and the January mixed up. *shrug*
User avatar
GlottalGreekGeek
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 3:37 am
Location: Mountain View

Postby Paul » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:54 pm

annis wrote:
Upon the completion of Pharr A, will there, be another session with Minckwitz's Odyssey M, or even a session with Iliad B?


No plans have been made about this, nor have we discussed it really, so I'm not sure what we'll do.


Hey Will,

I know it's a bit early for such judgments, but....I think we should consider Iliad B. And maybe we should wait until pharr-b group finishes Iliad A....

Cordially,

Paul
User avatar
Paul
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:47 pm
Location: New York

Postby chad » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:38 am

hi, comparing iliad 1 to 2 vocab e.g. is easy, you can do it in microsoft word (as well as in other compare programs.)

just put the vocab lists in separate docs and do a compare of book 2 against book 1: it shows you which words have been added and which deleted in markup.

i can see it fine on my screen, but i can't put my markup online because when i .pdf it, the pdf writer confuses all the unicode. but anyone can do it in word :)
chad
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 757
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:55 am

Postby annis » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:43 am

Paul wrote:I know it's a bit early for such judgments, but....I think we should consider Iliad B.


I'd be inclined to recommend Benner for that. M.M. Willcock's work is more current, but Benner has a built-in grammar and vocab.

And maybe we should wait until pharr-b group finishes Iliad A....


That would leave the Pharr-A group with 9 months to fill up with some other Greek.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Postby swiftnicholas » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:52 pm

Thanks for the tip, chad! That's a clever trick to know.
swiftnicholas
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:04 pm
Location: New York

Postby Bardo de Saldo » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:31 pm

When you're reading Homer on Perseus, if you click on any word a window will pop up telling you, among other things, how many times Homer uses that word.
User avatar
Bardo de Saldo
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:34 pm
Location: Newer Mexico


Return to Homeric Greek and Pharr's Homeric Greek - A Book For Beginners

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: GJCaesar and 12 guests