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Iliad 9:411?

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Iliad 9:411?

Postby JauneFlammee » Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:52 pm


410:[face=SPIonic]mh/thr ga/r te/ me/ fhsi qea\ *qe/tis a)rguro/peza
[/face]
411:[face=SPIonic]dixqadi/as kh=ras fere/men qana/toio te/los de/.
[/face]


My question is about 411:
the Loeb Translation says "Twofold fates are bearing me to the doom of death"

Now here's my question: I translated it as
"She said for me (Achilles) to bring here two fates: the end of which is death"
The reason I translated it this way:


"Double dooms" or "twofold fates" is plural,accusative: so shouldn't it be the object of the infinitive? whereas the Loeb translation has it as the subject.
Also, it seems the infinitive can be tranlated two ways here: neither of which seems to be used by Loeb here. "She said (for me,Achilles) to carry" or as in inifinitive of indirect discourse "She said..she would carry"


In short, im all confused and really trying to figure this out to get better at reading discourse.

(edited: initially had wrong verse: it is from book 9, line 411)
Last edited by JauneFlammee on Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
JauneFlammee
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Postby Paul » Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:32 pm

[face=SPIonic]dixqadi/aj kh=raj fere/men qana/toio te/loj de/.[/face]

Hi,

The subject of an infinitive is usually in the accusative.

Cordially,

Paul
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Postby JauneFlammee » Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:51 pm

I checked Goodwins greek grammar (895) and the example for the accusative subject of the infinitive is just like that above. I didn't think it applied here because the next two lines seem to make it clear that the choice is up to Achilles: thus i thought it was him bringing the fates rather than the fates bringing him. Also, isn't it natural to expect an accusative object for 'to bear,carry'.

I still don't see how you can tell the difference between the two (subject or object) if they are both in the accusative and the context isn't clear, is this a question of word order maybe.
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Postby Paul » Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:19 pm

Hi,

JauneFlammee wrote:Also, isn't it natural to expect an accusative object for 'to bear,carry'.


Yes. [face=SPIonic]te/loj[/face] is the accusative. This fact is obscured a little by the suffix [face=SPIonic]-de[/face]. But I think this is the so-called 'allative' suffix which gets appended to accusatives to reinforce the sense of 'toward which'.


JauneFlammee wrote:I still don't see how you can tell the difference between the two (subject or object) if they are both in the accusative and the context isn't clear, is this a question of word order maybe.


There are some rules about this, but I don't pretend to know them all. If you have a copy of Smyth's Grammar, please see 1972-1981.

Cordially,

Paul
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Postby Paul » Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:10 pm

Hi JauneFlammee,

If you're looking for a direct object of the infinitive, then I think it's fine to assume [face=SPIonic]me[/face], e.g., 'to bear me to the end of death'.

Cordially,

Paul
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