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Pharr Lesson XXV, Paragraph 150, sentence 6

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Pharr Lesson XXV, Paragraph 150, sentence 6

Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:43 am

[face=spionic](/Hrh e)kh/deto Danaw=n o(/ti tou\s qnh/skontas w)ra/eto.[/face]

What's confusing me is the second part of the sentence - [face=spionic]o(ra/w[/face] does not seem like a deponent verb, yet if the [face=spionic]w)ra/eto[/face] is in middle/passive, what is the relationship of [face=spionic]tou\s qnh/skontas[/face] in the accusative case with the rest of the sentence?

And now that I look at this again, since the first verb there is also non-deponent and in mid/pass, how do the two nouns relate?
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Re: Pharr Lesson XXV, Paragraph 150, sentence 6

Postby annis » Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:10 am

GlottalGreekGeek wrote:[face=spionic](/Hrh e)kh/deto Danaw=n o(/ti tou\s qnh/skontas w)ra/eto.[/face]

What's confusing me is the second part of the sentence - [face=spionic]o(ra/w[/face] does not seem like a deponent verb,


Oh, woe! Banish this word from your consciousness, this deponent. Verbs don't lay things aside, certainly not themselves.

The whole active/middle/passive question in Greek is annoying at first, and unfortunately can only be addressed with the help of a dictionary. It is a basic and occasionally vexing fact of Greek that some verbs are just always in the middle - or take forms called passive - and yet are active in meaning in English.

yet if the [face=spionic]w)ra/eto[/face] is in middle/passive, what is the relationship of [face=spionic]tou\s qnh/skontas[/face] in the accusative case with the rest of the sentence?


Middle verbs may readily take direct objects. There is, for example, a large class of active verbs which are always middle in the future. Why this should be is not clear. If you're not sure about a verb's voice, check a dictionary. Both the standard Homeric dictionaries say that [face=spionic]o(ra/w[/face] may be active or middle with the same meaning. The L&S says all the poets use the middle with active meaning for this verb.

"Because she saw them dying."

And now that I look at this again, since the first verb there is also non-deponent and in mid/pass, how do the two nouns relate?


Here there is a more subtle change going on.

Very often the middle is described as indicating that the verb subject is somehow interested or involved in the action. What this often amounts to is a matter of transitivity. Where there is a difference in meaning, the active will be transitive, the middle intransitive. So [face=spionic]e)/khden[/face] is "she hurt... something." Even if Greek doesn't express it here, the active form is transitive. An object is implied in the Greek, though in English "she hurt" by itself implies the verb subject is experiencing the pain. For that [face=spionic]e)/khdeto[/face] is used: "she hurt."

For the genitive, [face=spionic]e)kh/deto Danaw=n[/face], again the dictionary must be your guide. "She was troubled/hurt about the Danaans."

It's always difficult for me to talk about verb transitivity. I never know if I'm being clear. I hope this helps a little.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re: Pharr Lesson XXV, Paragraph 150, sentence 6

Postby Bert » Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:25 am

GlottalGreekGeek wrote:[face=spionic](/Hrh e)kh/deto Danaw=n o(/ti tou\j qnh/skontaj w)ra/eto.[/face]

What's confusing me is the second part of the sentence - [face=spionic]o(ra/w[/face] does not seem like a deponent verb, yet if the [face=spionic]w)ra/eto[/face] is in middle/passive, what is the relationship of [face=spionic]tou\j qnh/skontaj[/face] in the accusative case with the rest of the sentence?

[face=spionic]tou\j qnh/skontaj[/face] = the ones being killed, they are the ones that Hera is watching. Not just looking at but watching with great interest. That is what the middle voice indicates here.
See the note to line 56 in section 152.
GlottalGreekGeek wrote:And now that I look at this again, since the first verb there is also non-deponent and in mid/pass, how do the two nouns relate?

With the two nouns you mean Hera and the Danaans?
Hera is the subject who is grieved because of the Danaans.
[face=SPIonic]kh/dw[/face] in the middle voice [face=SPIonic]kh/domai[/face] means to be grieving for. The object of this grieving is in the genitive case. See section 984.
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Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:03 am

Thanks, this helps alot! *sigh* this is why people take years to master a language... at least it's a labor of love.
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Postby Bert » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:50 pm

If I had known that William replied already I probably would not have pitched in.
I don't mind being the first to reply. If I make a mistake someone will come and correct me.
But if I reply after someone else has explained it already, it seems that I wanted to be the one making some corrections. :oops:
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