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BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

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BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby mariek » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:54 am

<br />I just have a question about #9. I'm not sure whether I should use the Genitive in the underlined part of my translation.<br /><br />The teachers were happy because of the boys' industry.<br />Magisti aegri erant quia diligentae puerorum.<br /><br />
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby Magistra » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:13 am

<br />The teachers were happy because of the boys' industry.<br />Magisti aegri erant quia diligentae puerorum.<br /><br /><br />You need to keep the "r" in magistri.<br />I don't think you want "aegri", but its form is correct.<br />In Latin there are two prepositions commonly used for "because of": ob & propter. They both require accusative objects.<br /><br />Magistra
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby ingrid70 » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:18 am

I think he wants an ablative of cause:<br /><br />Magistr&#299; erant laet&#299; industri&#257; puer&#333;rum<br /><br />Ingrid<br />PS: aeger means ill, you want laetus here :).<br /><br /><br /><br />3 spelling mistakes in 4 lines. Duh...
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby bingley » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:08 am

What do ampersand hatch mark 299, ampersand hatch mark 257, and ampersand hatch mark 333 stand for?
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby benissimus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:14 am

It means that we don't have that coding :-q
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby bingley » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:25 am

:P ::)
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby ingrid70 » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:32 am

sorry, I use macrons in my notes, and copied the sentence. <br /><br />magistri erant laeti industria puerorum.<br /><br />Silly of me to see the spelling mistakes, and leaving the codes... :o<br /><br />Ingrid
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby Moerus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 10:01 am

The teachers were happy because of the boys' industry.<br />Magisti aegri erant quia diligentae puerorum.
<br /><br /><br />Magister, magistri, m<br />happy = laetus, -a, -um / alacer, -cris, -cre<br /><br />because = quia, quoniam, etc. when it introduces a sentence. <br />When you only have one word or a few, but certainly not a sentence, you can use the ablative of cause or a preposition like propter +acc.; gen. + causa (gen. preceeds); gen. + gratia (gen. preceeds); and other prepositions. But in classical prose ob +acc. is only found in a few expressions. <br />Mostly you express the cause by the ablative of cause and the reason by propter + acc. The difference between cause and reason is very difficult to see. The Romans also had troubles with it. But when people can change the situation themselves, it's mostly a reason. 'Because off the rain' is a cause, because no person can change that.<br />Even the Romans mixed them up. So I would use an abl. here anyway.<br /><br />you can use diligentia (possible), but also industria (better here).<br /><br />erant expresses more the duration or repetition of an act.<br />If you want to say that the happiness of the teachers lasted a long time, you better use 'erant'. But when you don't want to imply that notion, and you only want to express the fact of being happy in the past, you better use fuerunt. Both are possible here.<br /><br /><br />So; <br /><br />Magistri puerorum industria laeti erant / fuerunt.
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby Episcopus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:43 pm

Thanks ingrid ;)<br /><br />Ablative cause is often what I look for in an ablative - that is, one day, you'll have to see quickly, with (by means of) instinct which type of ablative is being used and just don't make it complicated. Especially with a preposition! What I do, as a beginner also, is look for a macron on the last a or o (we've only done dec. 1 and 2!). <br /><br />diligentia is defined as industry by Dr. B.L.D :o
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby Moerus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:59 pm

diligentia may have that sence, but it depends from the context. <br /><br />You don't always have to believe what's in Dr. B.L.D.There are connotations and it's impossible to mention them all in a beginners book. <br /><br />Industria is more commun.
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby mariek » Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:21 pm

[quote author=Magistra link=board=3;threadid=367;start=0#2766 date=1060071185]<br />You need to keep the "r" in magistri.[/quote]<br /><br />That was sloppy on my part. I have to get accustomed to those nouns. AND drop the e,not the er! :)<br /><br />
<br />In Latin there are two prepositions commonly used for "because of": ob & propter. They both require accusative objects.
<br /><br />We haven't learned op or propter yet, so they must be looking for something else.<br /><br />
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby mariek » Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:29 pm

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=367;start=0#2768 date=1060071509]<br />I think he wants an ablative of cause:<br /><br />Magistri erant laeti industria puerorum [/quote]<br /><br />Ablative of Cause. We just covered that a few lessons ago, and I already forgot it! >:( I think this was a trick question. <br /><br />Mariek est discipula misera.<br />
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby benissimus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:31 pm

As far as I know, you can't say because of without those prepositions/constructions. You could use quia, but you would have to reword the sentence to The teachers were happy because the boys were industrious or something like that... (to avoid the "because of").
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby Episcopus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:39 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=367;start=0#2844 date=1060108279]<br />As far as I know, you can't say because of without those prepositions/constructions.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Ablative of cause ;)<br /><br />I was only saying that 'diligentia' is shown as "diligence; industry" - so mariek would not have known any other word for 'industry'.<br /><br />mariek, I was thinking that that was only a few lessons ago hence my "look for ablative of cause" post! <br /><br />He will call upon things from many many lessons ago in big stories/dialogues! Don't you just love "the Boys'' Dialogues?
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby Milito » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:22 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=367;start=0#2843 date=1060108167]<br /><br />Ablative of Cause. We just covered that a few lessons ago, and I already forgot it! >:( I think this was a trick question. <br /><br />Mariek est discipula misera.<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Cheer up. The trick is just in remembering that "because" can be a conjunction ("quia" or "quod") and it can also be a preposition "because of" or "on account of" ("propter" or "causa")... The English grammar is colliding with the Latin grammar....... <br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby mariek » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:45 pm

[quote author=Moerus link=board=3;threadid=367;start=0#2773 date=1060077695]<br />you can use diligentia (possible), but also industria (better here). [/quote]<br /><br />We haven't yet learned industria yet. We've only learned diligentia which BLD defines as diligence, industry. <br />
<br />Mostly you express the cause by the ablative of cause and the reason by propter + acc. The difference between cause and reason is very difficult to see. The Romans also had troubles with it. But when people can change the situation themselves, it's mostly a reason. 'Because off the rain' is a cause, because no person can change that.<br />Even the Romans mixed them up. So I would use an abl. here anyway.
<br /><br />Oh boy, more curve balls to look forward to. Sounds as difficult as trying to figure out when to use the Subjunctive in French! <br /><br />I find it interesting how you all use different word order:<br />Magistri puerorum industria laeti erant / fuerunt.<br />Magistri erant laeti industria puerorum.<br /><br />
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby mariek » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:53 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=367;start=0#2844 date=1060108279]<br />As far as I know, you can't say because of without those prepositions/constructions. You could use quia, but you would have to reword the sentence to The teachers were happy because the boys were industrious or something like that... (to avoid the "because of").[/quote]<br /><br />I guess BLD will discuss these prepositions in the future, and then everything will fall into place.<br />
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby mariek » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:58 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=367;start=0#2853 date=1060111329]<br />The English grammar is colliding with the Latin grammar....... [/quote]<br /><br />It certainly appears to be. Need to stop translating literally too.<br />
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby Episcopus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:02 pm

For me, what's weird is that "fuerunt" in usual order goes to the end whilst "sunt" isn't as important. Unless it means "there are" (I love starting a sentence with sunt)
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby benissimus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:23 pm

You can put it wherever you please, no matter what word or type of word it is 8)<br /><br /><br />edit: well, almost any word...
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby Episcopus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 10:56 pm

I know that ;)<br /><br />But surely the meaning would change. <br /><br />The perfect stem tenses of esse are at the end in normal order instead of "Agricola est agricola" ;D "Agricola agricola fuit". <br /><br />almost any word - I be glad that you said that! benissimus autem erat puer pulcher ;)
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby benissimus » Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:40 am

Wouldn't want to say something like Puella bella magistra ianuam prope stabat. Very confusing and I don't think you even can have a preposition after the target.
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby mariek » Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:37 am

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=367;start=#2846 date=1060108794]<br />He will call upon things from many many lessons ago in big stories/dialogues! Don't you just love "the Boys'' Dialogues? [/quote]<br /><br />Good! I need the extra practice and review.<br /><br />As for his dialogues... I don't really find them "realistic" but I understand that they're constructed to give you practice on the latest point. <br />
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby mariek » Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:39 am

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=367;start=#2812 date=1060098197]<br />What I do, as a beginner also, is look for a macron on the last a or o [/quote]<br /><br />Yes, that is a handy hint. But what about cases when there are no macrons to rely on? <br />
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby Moerus » Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:02 am

Puella bella magistra ianuam prope stabat.<br /><br />I don't understand this. Do you mean 'Puella, bella magistra, prope ianuam stabat.' ? <br /><br />A case can stand after his preposition, like 'ianuam prope' but it's very rare and very poetic. Normally it's after the proposition. Sometimes, however poets place the case before the preposition for their metrical scheme! In classical prose only a few are before their 'preposition'. This is the case with 'gen. + causa' or 'gen.+ gratia'. And in fact these two aren't really prepositions!<br />So normally; case after the preposition!<br /><br />P.s.: In greek the inverse order with prepositions occures more, but even there it's not the rule!
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby Episcopus » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:33 am

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=367;start=15#2907 date=1060144752]<br />[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=367;start=#2812 date=1060098197]<br />What I do, as a beginner also, is look for a macron on the last a or o [/quote]<br /><br />Yes, that is a handy hint. But what about cases when there are no macrons to rely on? <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />That's just for the ablative of cause, manner (with adjective), means and figurative seperation. <br /><br />The dialogues are GREAT!
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Re:BLD Ex125 Pg53 #9

Postby Milito » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:41 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=367;start=15#2907 date=1060144752]<br />[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=367;start=#2812 date=1060098197]<br />What I do, as a beginner also, is look for a macron on the last a or o [/quote]<br /><br />Yes, that is a handy hint. But what about cases when there are no macrons to rely on? <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />You quickly discover that it doesn't agree with a verb, or seems to be hanging out all by itself in the middle of a sentence, or something, and almost automatically give it the mental tag of "probably ablative". Once you've got the main point of the sentence down, you try adding the word with "by/with/from/in/on/at" in front of it, which often solves the problem. It isn't as threatening as it sounds, really!<br /><br />Kilmeny
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