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Daphne

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Daphne

Postby klewlis » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:28 am

How should Daphne be declined?<br /><br />I have the following clause in my latin software: <br />"Bracchia Daphnes in ramos crescunt" and it is translated "Daphne's arms grow into branches".<br /><br />But if it is possessive, shouldn't it be also genitive? And isn't es an odd ending for a genitive? (I can't find any samples of a genitive ending in es in Wheelock)
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Re:Daphne

Postby klewlis » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:31 am

hm... the software says it is an irregular noun, following the greek genitive form, so of course that makes more sense...<br /><br />does anyone have more to add?
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Re:Daphne

Postby bingley » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:34 am

Daphne Daphnes is the Greek first declension. <br /><br />Whoops, sorry, I didn't see your second post had sneaked in while I was writing mine.
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Re:Daphne

Postby klewlis » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:43 am

thanks. :)<br /><br />I tend to answer my own questions while waiting for the responses... lol
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Re:Daphne

Postby Moerus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 10:22 am

Daphne is a greek name. So it has a Greek declension. So 'Daphnes' is the genitive. <br /><br />Mostly Greek names have also a Latin declension. The Greek declension does not always have all the forms we need in Latin. But the Latin declension does! <br /><br />So we have Antigona, ae (Latin first declension like femina, etc.). This Latin declension has all the forms!<br /><br />But also Nom. / Voc.: Antigone<br /> Acc.: Antigonen<br /> Gen.: Antigones<br /> Abl.: Antigone<br />There is no dative! I don't think Daphne has a Latin declension, or if it has one, that it is commun, so you have to use Daphnes.
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Re:Daphne

Postby Skylax » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:15 pm

The Dative of such nouns is Latinized : Daphnae
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Re:Daphne

Postby Moerus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:47 pm

The Dative of such nouns is Latinized : Daphnae
<br /><br />No it's not!<br />You must distinct the Latin from the Greek declension. In the Greek declension there is no dative!<br /><br />In the Latin declension there is a dative on -ae.<br />But sometimes there is no Latin declension. THerefor it's necessary to look up each of these special words in a good dictionnary like Lewis and Short or Gaffiot (Frensh). Gaffiot does'nt mention a Latin declension of Daphne, neither do Lewis and Short. Then you can conclude that the Dative-form does not exist or better: does not appear in any text!<br />So don't give Daphne anything!<br /><br /><br />
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Re:Daphne

Postby Milito » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:55 pm

Now, I'm looking at a dictionary (New college Latin and English) which does give dative of Greek nouns. I have to confess to being surprised about a lack of **dative** case for them, since Greek doesn't have an **ablative** case, but certainly does have a dative! (It's the one with the subscripted iota all over the place.....)<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Daphne

Postby bingley » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:55 pm

Since nouns in Greek have a dative but no ablative, it seems unlikely that the Greek declension in Latin would have an ablative but no dative. However, unlikely things do happen, so if you'd like to give examples, I'd be very interested.
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Re:Daphne

Postby Moerus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:23 pm

In Greek we have a Nominative, vocative, accusative, genetive and dative. In Latin we have all those and also an ablative. When you want to study why some cases have disapeared and others didn't, you must go back to an older stage, Indo-european language. Then we see that also in Latin some cases almost dissapeared, cause they had the same endings at one moment in time as and other case, so this other case took over the functions of the case and this case was no longer needed! In Latin there were also two other cases; instrumentalis and Locative. The instrumentalis was no longer needed at a certain moment, cause the ablative had taken over his functions. So also the locative dissapeared and was replaced mostly by prepositions. The locative indicated the place and the time mostly. Now we use prepositions (in urbe) or an other case (Romae, ...). But there are some forms that lasted like domi, ruri, humi etc. (these are old locatives!). You can see here old locatives with an ending in -i. Romae was spelled Roma-i in old times. So in fact forms like Romae are locatives and not genetives. But it's easier, when you learn Latin to say that it is a genetive and so all grammars do (except historical grammars of course). That way you have to remember less cases! The Romans did this for helping you! ;) <br /><br />When Latin felt appart into many Roman languages the cases we know, were mostly transformed in prepositions too! <br /><br />Referring to the ablative - dative question; <br /><br />You all know that the endings of the ablative are often the same as the endings of the dative, for exemple; <br />feminis - feminis (femina), avo - avo, avis -avis (avus), mari -mari (mare) and also the endings on - ibus are the same etc, etc.<br /><br />In Greek we have many iota subscripta. The fact that a iota was subscribed means that it was pronounced less. So in later Greek (Byzantine Greek) it dissapeared. <br />The forms of the dative in Greek corresponded better with the ablative than with the dative in Latin. That's why the Romans took over the Greek dative with the functions of an ablative (!!!) and that they let the dative - case open in the Greek declension!<br />It has a morphological explanation. Also the ablative and dative are in most cases connected when you look at the origins. <br /><br />But if you want to now more about that, you should read a historical grammar, like; Palmer, The Latin language. or Ernout, Grammaire historique du Latin. (Frensh).<br /><br />But remember in the Greek declension the Romans had an ablative and no dative! In Greek it's the opposite!<br />
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Re:Daphne

Postby Moerus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:44 pm

Examples; <br /><br />In all my previous posts I was only talking about the exemple 'Daphne'. Greek nouns in -e don't have a dative - form in Latin, but they do have an ablative-form. Mostly there is also a Latin declension and here we also have a dative. But there are also other Greek declenions hat made it into Latin, where we can find a Dative - form (cause here the two forms, the Latin and the Greek form, do have some ressemblance!). <br /><br />In my examples this is the order of cases; Nom. - Voc. - Acc. - Gen. - Dat. - Abl.<br /><br />Aeneas - Aenea (The Latin vocative is not used here) - Aenean (the Latin accusative is Aeneam) - Aeneae (only the Latin form, caude the Greek form in ou does'nt even come near to the Latin form) - Aeneae (both forms, Latin and Greek, are the same, they only have an other orthography) - Aenea (both forms are the same, Latin in a, Greek in ai with iota subscriptum that was not pronounced any more!).<br /><br />So you also have; <br /><br />Spartiates - Spartiate (Latin form -a) - Spartiaten (Latin form - am) - Spartiatae - Spartiatae - Spartiate<br /><br />In plural onluy the Latin forms are used: <br />Spartiatae - ae - as - arum - is - is.<br /><br />Ilium (Ilion) - Ilium (Ilion) - Ilium (Ilion) -Ilii -Ilio - Ilio. <br /><br />RHodus (os) - Rhode - Rhodum (on) - Rhodi -Rhodo -Rhodo<br /><br />THeseus - Theseu - Theseum (ea) - Thesei (eos) - Theseo (ei) - Theseo<br /><br />In the third declension only some forms came into Latin; <br /><br />aëra (acc sing) of aër<br />Cretas (acc plur) of Cres, Cretis (someone who lives in Creta).<br /><br />If you want to have more exemples you can see in a good Latin grammer, maybe they mention a few others. I think I gave the most importants. <br /><br />Also when you have only one form, there is no discussion. When you have two forms (Latin and Greek), you can use both. But there was always one the most commun! But we can't know that if we don't have a dictionnary, cause it's different for each word! Romans knew this by speaking Latin! Quintillian wrote something about it in his institutio oratoria. <br /><br />Succes with all these!
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Re:Daphne

Postby Skylax » Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:21 pm

Quote:<br />The Dative of such nouns is Latinized : Daphnae<br /><br />This assertion was based, among other, on Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar for Schools and Colleges, § 44, see on Perseus:<br />http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001&query=head%3D%2326 (You must copy this address into your address bar)<br /><br />Ovid, in his Heroides, has written PARIS HELENAE (Latinized), HELENE (Greek) PARIDI. However, HELENA is well attested.<br />I admit that Latin writers seem to avoid the dative of Greek names like Pasiphae, Circe, Penelope, Ariadne etc. I couldn't find a passage where a dative was needed.<br /><br />
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Re:Daphne

Postby Moerus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:54 pm

Yes that's correct. But most grammars generalize their explanations. <br /><br />But with the specific word 'Daphne' there is no dative, neither a Latin one. So you can say that this word is an exeption on the rule. <br /><br />With specific words, you better see in a dictionnary, I think.<br />When you make a general rule, there are always exceptions. <br />But I will contact Allen and Greenough and tell them about you finding an exception.
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Re:Daphne

Postby Skylax » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:17 am

Another exception : Eriphyle, ablative Eriphyle, dative Eriphylae in Hyginus, Fabulae, 73 :<br /><br />Amphiaraus ... qui sciret si ad Thebas oppugnatum isset se inde non rediturum, itaque celavit se conscia Eriphyle coniuge sua... Adrastus autem, ut eum investigaret, monile aureum... fecit et muneri dedit sorori suae Eriphylae.<br /><br />"Amphiaraus... because he knew that if he joined in the attack on Thebes he was destined not to return thence, went accordingly into hiding, his accomplice being his wife, Eriphyle... But Adrastus, that he might track him down, offered a a golden necklace set ... as a present to Eriphyle, who was his sister..."<br />(Translation as in Warmington, Remains of Old Latin, I, page 229)
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