BLD Ex117 Pg49 Is Ea Id

by **mariek** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:28 am

I'm working on the Demonstrative Is, Ea, and Id and the related Personal Pronouns. Boy is this a toughie! I don't see any sort of "pattern" in the declension! Is there a trick to memorizing these? BLD mentions options for some. For example: ei or ii; eis or iis. Then he has a note below which reads "In the plural the forms with two i's are preferred". If that is the case, why don't we learn only the "ii" version? Here's my attempt at Ex117. I'm including all my answers, but the one I'm most unsure about is #12. #1 He praises her, him, it, them. Is eam laudat, eum, id, eos. #2 This cart, that report, these teachers, those women, that abode, these abodes. Is carrus, ea fama, ii magisti, eae feminae, id domicilium, ea domicilia. #3 That strong garrison -> id praesidium validum. among those weak and sick women -> apud eas feminas infirmorum et aegrarum. that want of firmness -> ea inopia constantiae. those frequent plans -> ea consilia crebrum. Does the adjective go before the noun, but after the demonstrative pronoun? As in: apud eas informorum et aegrarum feminas. Does the genitive go before the noun, but after the demonstrative pronoun? As in: ea constantiae inopia. I'm still trying to get a feel for word order. #4 The other woman is calling her chickens (her own). Altera femina suas gallinas vocat. #5 Another woman is calling her chickens (not her own). Alia femina eas gallinas vocat. Did I use the corrrect alter/alius in #4 and #5? This still sorta gives me trouble. #6 The Gaul praises his arms (his own). Gallia suum armam laudat. #7 The Gaul praises his arms (not his own). Gallia eum armam laudat. #8 This farmer often plows their fields. Is agricola eum agrum arat. #9 Those wretched slaves long for their master (their own). Ii servi mali suum dominum desiderat. #10 Those wretched slaves long for their master (not their own). Ii servi mali eos dominum desiderat. #11 Free men love their own fatherland. Viri liberi suas patriam amant. #12 They love its villages and towns. Id vicos et oppida amat.

by **bingley** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:35 am

#4 The other woman is calling her chickens (her own). Altera femina suas gallinas vocat. #5 Another woman is calling her chickens (not her own). Alia femina eas gallinas vocat. Eas gallinas would be 'those chickens'. For 'her chickens' use the genitive eius gallinas #6 The Gaul praises his arms (his own). Gallia suum armam laudat. #7 The Gaul praises his arms (not his own). Gallia eum armam laudat. I think Gallia is the country. The (male) Gaul would be Gallus. Again 'eum armam' (should be plural) 'those arms'. His arms 'arma eius' And so on. If his or her or its does not refer to the subject, it will always be eius.

by **Episcopus** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:40 pm

among those weak and sick women -> apud eas feminas infirmorum et aegrarum apud eas feminas aegras infirmasque ... or something like that! but whence came the gen. pl. "aegrarum"?

by **Skylax** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:16 pm

Summarizing up... 4. Altera femina suas gallinas vocat. 5. Alia femina eius gallinas vocat. 6. Gallus arma sua laudat. 7. Gallus eius arma laudat. 8. Is agricola eorum agros arat. (="the fields of other men") 9. Ii servi miseri suum dominum desiderant. 10. Ii servi miseri eorum dominum desiderant. (="the master of other slaves") 11. Viri liberi suam patriam amant. 12. Eius vicos et oppida amant. (="the villages... of the homeland") Vale

by **ingrid70** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:43 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2398 date=1059636528] [color=cerulean] I'm working on the Demonstrative Is, Ea, and Id and the related Personal Pronouns. Boy is this a toughie! I don't see any sort of "pattern" in the declension! Is there a trick to memorizing these? [/quote] There is a pattern: compare is, ea, id with the first and second declensions, and you'll see that most of the plural is regular. The genitive in -ius and the dative in -i are typical of pronouns (compare this with the 9 irregular adiectives, that can also be used as pronouns). The only irregularities left are 'is' for the nom.s.masc and 'id' for the nom/acc.s.neutr. Ingrid

by **mariek** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:17 am

[quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2409 date=1059644148] Eas gallinas would be 'those chickens'. For 'her chickens' use the genitive eius gallinas [/quote] Oh, the Genetive! What was I thinking? I think I was stuck on the ACC because gallinas was ACC.

I think Gallia is the country. The (male) Gaul would be Gallus. Again 'eum armam' (should be plural) 'those arms'. His arms 'arma eius'

Oh, you're right about that. I should have used Gallus instead of Gallius. If arms should be plural, then the ACC PL would be armas. Would I usethe GEN S with that to say "his arms"? That is, "eius armas"? Gallus eius armas laudat.

And so on. If his or her or its does not refer to the subject, it will always be eius.

Ah, I didn't see that connection before. Thanks for pointing that out.

by **mariek** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:23 am

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2424 date=1059655227] among those weak and sick women -> apud eas feminas infirmorum et aegrarum apud eas feminas aegras infirmasque ... or something like that! but whence came the gen. pl. "aegrarum"? [/quote] Hmmm... what was I thinking when I worked on this phrase? Apud takes the ACC, so I made women ACC, thus "eas feminas". Weak and sick are adjectives. Why did I make them GEN PL? I have no idea. Infirma -> ACC PL -> infirmas. Aegra -> ACC PL -> aegras. So the sentence becomes: apud eas feminas infirmas et aegras. Or more elegantly, as you put it: apud eas feminas aegras informasque. Is there a difference in adjective order? What if it's: apud eas feminas informas aegrasque ???

by **mariek** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:38 am

[quote author=Skylax link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2458 date=1059671763] 8. Is agricola eorum agros arat. (="the fields of other men") [/quote] Oh I see my mistake, I didn't make ager ACC PL. And I should have made "their" GEN PL, thus eorum. I see the trend here, I keep missing the instances when I should use the GEN. I will have to work on that.

9. Ii servi miseri suum dominum desiderant.

I see I mistakenly used malus instead of miser, and I forgot to make malus agree with NUM PL.

10. Ii servi miseri eorum dominum desiderant. (="the master of other slaves")

Again, I mistakenly used malus, and I didn't know that I should have used the GEN eorum. I think I know why. I'm trying to match case, and I thought that it should match the noun which is in the ACC.

11. Viri liberi suam patriam amant.

This was absolutely sloppy of me to not match sua with the noun, making it suam.

12. Eius vicos et oppida amant. (="the villages... of the homeland")

Hmmm... this one is really tough! Thanks for the corrections. They really help me try to understand where I went wrong. I need to work on agreement, and to remember to use the GEN for his/her/its/their.

by **mariek** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:41 am

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2459 date=1059677012] There is a pattern: compare is, ea, id with the first and second declensions, and you'll see that most of the plural is regular. The genitive in -ius and the dative in -i are typical of pronouns (compare this with the 9 irregular adiectives, that can also be used as pronouns). The only irregularities left are 'is' for the nom.s.masc and 'id' for the nom/acc.s.neutr. [/quote] Oooooh... you've just summarized it all! I didn't see that at all. I see... the base is e!

Website · by **benissimus** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:36 am

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2480 date=1059718667] [quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2409 date=1059644148] Eas gallinas would be 'those chickens'. For 'her chickens' use the genitive eius gallinas [/quote] Oh, the Genetive! What was I thinking? I think I was stuck on the ACC because gallinas was ACC.

I think Gallia is the country. The (male) Gaul would be Gallus. Again 'eum armam' (should be plural) 'those arms'. His arms 'arma eius'

Oh, you're right about that. I should have used Gallus instead of Gallius. If arms should be plural, then the ACC PL would be armas. Would I usethe GEN S with that to say "his arms"? That is, "eius armas"? Gallus eius armas laudat.

And so on. If his or her or its does not refer to the subject, it will always be eius.

Ah, I didn't see that connection before. Thanks for pointing that out. [/quote] The accusative plural of armum is arma.

by **Episcopus** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:44 pm

12. Eius vicos et oppida amant Mariek - I remember this one also! It is hard to read as "its" occurs less frequently generally methinks... Ah yes I remember that one...something similar to 'puellae malae bonas cenas non parant' Or something along those lines...or 'viri validi cenam parare non possunt' I like sexist Latin phrases they sound funny.

by **mariek** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:45 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2485 date=1059730591] The accusative plural of armum is arma [/quote] Oh I see. I keep thinking arma starts out NOM S when it is really NOm PL. And that I have to decline this. And the ACC PL just happens to be the sasme as the NOM PL version, arma. And suum must agree in the ACC PL, thus sua. It's all slowly coming together for me.

So the sentence should be: Gallus suum arma laudat. Gallus eius arma laudat. Does this mean arma is never used in the singular?

by **mariek** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:53 pm

[quote author=Skylax link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2458 date=1059671763] 6. Gallus arma sua laudat. 7. Gallus eius arma laudat. [/quote] I must have missed the rule about where to place these pronouns/adjectives. Can I generalize be saying that the mea/tua/sua types go after the noun, while the is/ea/id types go before the noun? ???

by **ingrid70** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:55 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2499 date=1059752736] [quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2485 date=1059730591] The accusative plural of armum is arma [/quote] Does this mean arma is never used in the singular? [/quote] That's right, arma is a 'plurale tantum': just plural. Like scissors in English. Ingrid

by **Milito** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:20 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2398 date=1059636528] [color=cerulean] I'm working on the Demonstrative Is, Ea, and Id and the related Personal Pronouns. Boy is this a toughie! I don't see any sort of "pattern" in the declension! Is there a trick to memorizing these? BLD mentions options for some. For example: ei or ii; eis or iis. Then he has a note below which reads "In the plural the forms with two i's are preferred". If that is the case, why don't we learn only the "ii" version? [/quote] I didn't see an answer to this question, so here's my take on why you are told about both - when you're actually reading latin texts, you will find both, depending on who's edited the text, and which author wrote it, and so on! Another example along these lines, which stands out vividly to me, is the accusative plural of 3rd declension nouns - I learned that these are "usually" ended in "-es". But when reading the Aeneid this spring, I discovered that Vergil seemed to prefer the other option, "-is". This gave me a good deal of headache, until I tripped over one of those notes that explains the other option...! Kilmeny

by **mariek** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:01 am

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2503 date=1059774926] That's right, arma is a 'plurale tantum': just plural. Like scissors in English. [/quote] The funny thing is that I'm not even "aware" that scissors is always plural. I suppose it was the same way with Latin, they never gave it a second thought about arma.

by **mariek** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:25 am

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2510 date=1059780044] when you're actually reading latin texts, you will find both, depending on who's edited the text, and which author wrote it, and so on! [/quote] Oh, I see. That makes perfect sense, you have to learn it so that you will recognize it if you happen to run across it when some rogue author decides to use the less preferred variation.

by **Milito** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:08 pm

Well, it's not even necessarily a rogue author! Consider - you can tell I'm Canadian because I write "colour", "honour", and "favour" (and so on.....) And when I was going to high school, it was absolutely verboten to think about using the spelling "donut" (if one happened to want to) in class - it had to be "doughnut"..... Spellings change between times and places, and we are really lucky in that we have a lot of Latin literature (relatively speaking!) from a lot of times and places.... Kilmeny

by **Episcopus** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 8:17 pm

milito have you seen "Bowling For Columbine"? Do you lock your door? Woah! I never knew how cool Canada was! I mean, 30 million people and 7 million guns - but hardly any killings! Nice to see that you only be shooting deerses ;D but you shouldn't do that either... And Canadians are so much less paranoid, they would be good at is, ea, id (not just to keep it on topic!). And the mayors actually want good for their people

See - American TV convinced me that canadians were worthless...I should stop, like many others should, believing everything that I watch on T.V! Sorry (ignore this if you don't be canadian!).

by **mariek** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 9:41 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2495 date=1059749065] I like sexist Latin phrases they sound funny. [/quote] Oddly enough, I never really thought about how sexist some of the phrases were.

by **mariek** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 9:47 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=335;start=15#2545 date=1059840510] Spellings change between times and places, and we are really lucky in that we have a lot of Latin literature (relatively speaking!) from a lot of times and places.... [/quote] I suppose having a lot of Latin liturature serve as examples to help piece it all together, and to see how the language evolved. How much Latin literature is available? How does this compare to the amount of Greek liturature available? But still... these spelling variations -- eis vs iis and ei vs ii -- create another challenge for us newbies.

by **Episcopus** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 10:01 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=335;start=15#2607 date=1059946915] Oddly enough, I never really thought about how sexist some of the phrases were. [/quote] I gladly notice them while reading, and laugh at how accurate they are ;D

by **mariek** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 10:09 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=335;start=15#2612 date=1059948075] I gladly notice them while reading, and laugh at how accurate they are ;D [/quote] It certainly makes it more authentic. But aren't you glad that times have changed? You really don't want to spend all your time going off to war with all that primitive weoponry, do you? And they weren't as advanced in medicine to patch you up if you were to get a bad injury.

by **Episcopus** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 10:47 pm

Agreed - but you can't say it to be not amusing! nam latin is a great language in which to offend...

by **ingrid70** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:21 am

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=335;start=15#2607 date=1059946915] [quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=335;start=0#2495 date=1059749065] I like sexist Latin phrases they sound funny. [/quote] Oddly enough, I never really thought about how sexist some of the phrases were. [/quote] Hmmm, I did. What do you think of the story of Perseus and Andromeda, where the oracle tells Andromeda's father that she has to be sacrificed to the monster in order to save the country. Then the next sentence is: Andromeda autem erat puella pulchra. Yeah, right. If she'd been ugly, it would have been no problem ::)? Ingrid

by **Ptolemaios** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:34 am

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=335;start=15#2664 date=1059981688] Hmmm, I did. What do you think of the story of Perseus and Andromeda, where the oracle tells Andromeda's father that she has to be sacrificed to the monster in order to save the country. Then the next sentence is: Andromeda autem erat puella pulchra. Yeah, right. If she'd been ugly, it would have been no problem ::)? Ingrid [/quote] Where could I find more context of the Andromeda autem-sentence? Vale. Ptolemaios

by **ingrid70** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 11:16 am

[quote author=Ptolemaios link=board=3;threadid=335;start=15#2668 date=1059982453] Where could I find more context of the Andromeda autem-sentence? Vale. Ptolemaios [/quote] BLD ex. 171. The story of Perseus and Andromeda is told in 4 exercises, this is the second one. The others are 168, 193 and 200. You can't really blame D'Ooge for this way of thinking though, I suppose. Most damsels in distress are beautiful

. Ingrid Oh hoe bestaat het dat ik hou van een lelijke vrouw, zo lief zo zacht en toch zo lelijk als de nacht (Jaap Fisher).

by **Episcopus** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 11:45 am

Ah yes...Andromeda autem erat puella pulchra Lovely line!! Oh hoe bestaat het dat ik hou van een lelijke vrouw, zo lief zo zacht en toch zo lelijk als de nacht (Jaap Fisher). !is that a language?!

by **Skylax** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:41 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=335;start=15#2688 date=1059997509] Ah yes...Andromeda autem erat puella pulchra Lovely line!! Oh hoe bestaat het dat ik hou van een lelijke vrouw, zo lief zo zacht en toch zo lelijk als de nacht (Jaap Fisher). !is that a language?! [/quote] It means : "Ah, comment peut-il se faire que j'aime une femme laide, si adorable, si douce et pourtant si laide !" It is literary Dutch, a kind of Niederdeutsch . It is written on the other side of the English Channel, not so far away from you.

by **Episcopus** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:46 pm

;D not that I have a problem Skylax but why do you always translate into french? I mean I understand it but how many languages can you speak!

by **Skylax** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:19 pm

(Going off topic but...) Well, I speak only French. Alas. French is the only language into which I could translate the Dutch sentence with a sufficient confidence. It is a delightful sentence, you know, etiamsi foedas feminas non amas. Ceterum quomodo feminas foedas agnoscis ?

by **Episcopus** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:41 pm

you speak english, dutch ??? what does that mean

by **mariek** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:46 pm

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=335;start=15#2664 date=1059981688] Hmmm, I did. What do you think of the story of Perseus and Andromeda, where the oracle tells Andromeda's father that she has to be sacrificed to the monster in order to save the country. [/quote] I'm ignorant of that story.

Is this a story I will come across in BLD Latin for Beginners?

by **mariek** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:54 pm

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=335;start=15#2683 date=1059995768] BLD ex. 171. The story of Perseus and Andromeda is told in 4 exercises, this is the second one. The others are 168, 193 and 200. [/quote] That's way off me. I'm only on Ex 124. I'm so happy, We finally got to verbs! All is right....

I don't feel like I've fully absorbed is, ea, id and all the declensions, but I have the feeling I'll get more practice as I move forward and do future exercises which build on past topics.

by **Episcopus** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:00 pm

yeah, is ea id come as you read more. I have a nasty habit of putting eorum instead of sua. You will be sick of verbs in no time! Especially passives!

by **mariek** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:10 pm

[quote author=Skylax link=board=3;threadid=335;start=30#2706 date=1060003148] Well, I speak only French. Alas. French is the only language into which I could translate the Dutch sentence with a sufficient confidence. [/quote] It only makes sense that you would feel most comfortable translating anything into votre langue maternelle. I really loved your translation of the Latin fragment in the other thread about a picture of Old Latin (http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic . php?t=326;start=2410).

by **mariek** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:11 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=335;start=30#2730 date=1060011690] you speak english, dutch ??? what does that mean

[/quote] Qui apprend une nouvelle langue acquiert une nouvelle âme. (Juan Ramón Jiménez)

by **Episcopus** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:25 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=335;start=30#2736 date=1060013415] I really loved your translation of the Latin fragment in the other thread about a picture of Old Latin [/quote] tu as raison ça me plait aussi très jolie

by **mariek** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:41 am

yeah, is ea id come as you read more. I have a nasty habit of putting eorum instead of sua.

I thought it was interesting how they used one set of pronouns for one's own and another set of pronouns for someone else's. Something to keep us on our toes!

by **Episcopus** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:35 am

I can see myself calling my son Eorum ;D

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