The example in the link is invalid for various reasons, which we can explore if you like.
Sure, go on!
The example in the link is invalid for various reasons, which we can explore if you like.
Titus Marius Crispus wrote:The atrocities (in my view) that God committed and/or caused in the Old Testament also contribute to my disbelief in the flawlessness of the Bible. For example, in the book of Numbers, God commands the Israelites to wipe out an entire race of people (the Midianites). When the soldiers come back to Moses, having spared the women and children, Moses scolds them and commands them to kill all the males and non-virgin females. He says to save only the virgin girls for themselves. Omnibenevolent? Merciful?
Titus Marius Crispus wrote:I believe I can explain why one would have faith in the Bible: either brainwashing or exploitation of human weakness.
This does not, to me, seem like a pointless question. If I am wrong, I would suffer for all eternity for it. I argue with people about the question in an effort to be sure I have not misunderstood something or made a vital mistake which would cost me dearly.
Your error is to judge these events through the human perspective. This sounds reasonable but it is flawed. We must judge this from God's perspective. So what is God's perspective,? God's perspective is that of the creator of the universe and everything in it. As creator, He owns everything (including us). Therefore, He is justified in any action He deems necessary. When discussing this, we must also take into account God's character. A few attributes of His character are Love, Peace, Mercy but it also includes Justice, Righteousness, Vengence among others.
Since God owns us, He can set the rules. When we break the rules (this is called sin), we are subject to punishment. God tells us in His word that the wages (reward) of sin is death. This may mean both physical and spiritual death. God may choose to show us mercy and allow us time to repent (turn from our sinful ways) or he man choose justice and give us the punishment we deserve. The choice is entirely His and He is completely justified in whatever He chooses.
Emma_85 wrote:Any Christian who believes that the Bible is perfect is just believing to the extreme that his religion is correct I suppose.
Turpissimus wrote:If mercy and justice are whatever God says they are, aren't the terms essentially meaningless? If no objective standard exists for judging God, how can we tell if he is good or evil?
Turpissimus wrote:I thought the Bible was meant to be the account of what Jesus said and did. I don't think that the text itself claims that God chose the precise wording or the incidents which were to be related.
copain wrote:Would not words of war and hatred against the occupation and the romans suit more for someone who claims to be the herald of a new time ?
These false religions and denominations are easy to spot by comparing their teachings to the Bible. If they are different than the Bible, they are false.
there can be no redemption for sin without the shedding of innocent blood
Titus Marius Crispus wrote:This belief alarms me also. There are many examples in the Old Testament, that, if taken to be absolute truth, would cause Bad Things to happen (see http://tommyland.sytes.net/drlaura.txt for some examples). Some have told me that they are able to maintain faith in the perfection of the Bible without, for example, stoning to death those who work on the Sabbath, because the New Testament changed all that. They say that Jesus will judge people, so they don't have to.
I can't quite grasp the idea of God changing his mind about what we should and should not do, but that is, of course, on account of my inability to explain things like God's Will with rationalism.
there can be no redemption for sin without the shedding of innocent blood
Rhuiden wrote:Emma, please remember that there is only one God and therefore can only be one religion.
Rhuiden wrote:Men have created false gods to worship and have intentionally taught false doctrines since the beginning of time. These false religions and denominations are easy to spot by comparing their teachings to the Bible. If they are different than the Bible, they are false.
Rhuiden wrote:What standard could we use for judging God? Also, he is good by definition that is why when Satan rebelled, he was cast out of Heaven. ...
Rhuiden wrote:... Unrighteousness cannot exit, or even enter, in Heaven.
Rhuiden wrote:An excellent book to read is ...
Also, the last time I checked, Christianity is still a belief. Not one thing about God in Christianity has every been proven scientifically to be fact.
Kasper wrote:As I said at the start of this pointless discussion: you cannot rationally prove an irrational thing, such as faith. Why are you even trying? Bringing all these ancient mythological stories into it as if that will rationally prove things, trying to prove God's character...
Rhuiden wrote:Also, the last time I checked, evolution is still a theory. That is because not one thing about evolution has every been proven scientifically to be fact.
Rhuiden wrote:Men have created false gods to worship and have intentionally taught false doctrines since the beginning of time. These false religions and denominations are easy to spot by comparing their teachings to the Bible. If they are different than the Bible, they are false.
Rhuiden wrote:Also, the last time I checked, evolution is still a theory. That is because not one thing about evolution has every been proven scientifically to be fact.
classicalclarinet wrote:there can be no redemption for sin without the shedding of innocent blood
Doesn't seem that revolutionary to me... that is why Jesus died, his innocent blood alleviating everyone's sins.
Democritus wrote:What would you say if Jesus appeared before you, and told you something that was at odds with the Bible? Who would you believe, Jesus or the Bible?
"I've changed my mind about the end times, Rhuiden. Just forget about what I said in the Apocalypse. I have new plans."
What would you say? "No, Jesus, you can't do that." Would you say that?
Scientists use words like "theory" because, unlike Christian fundamentalists, they publicly acknowledge their own human limitations when it comes to perceiving the truth.
Turpissimus wrote:If God wrote the Vulgate whether or not directly in Latin God must really suck!
Wasn't it Nietzsche who said that God wrote the worst Greek he had ever read?
' Course, I've never read the Bible in Greek.
Kasper wrote:Wow Rhuiden, you are no doubt the most pagan christrian I have ever met!there can be no redemption for sin without the shedding of innocent blood
:shock:
I mean, whatever makes you happy and explains this stuff for you, but this... really man, I'm shocked.
See, I was taught (and still believe) that Jezus died for our sins so that we didn't have to go to hell anymore (Yes I believe no one goes to hell anymore because of that).
Sorry, I'm just very surprised....
Kasper wrote:See, I was taught (and still believe) that Jezus died for our sins so that we didn't have to go to hell anymore (Yes I believe no one goes to hell anymore because of that).
klewlis wrote:Atonement through the blood of an innocent animal goes right back to the very beginning of Judaism (probably further). It is a continuous theme throughout the Bible, leading right up to Jesus. This is why he is called the "Lamb of God".
Rhuiden wrote:Emma, please remember that there is only one God and therefore can only be one religion. Men have created false gods to worship and have intentionally taught false doctrines since the beginning of time. These false religions and denominations are easy to spot by comparing their teachings to the Bible. If they are different than the Bible, they are false.
Also, the last time I checked, evolution is still a theory. That is because not one thing about evolution has every been proven scientifically to be fact.
Rhuiden
Emma_85 wrote:You have no real reason to believe the book of your religion to be the only right one.
Emma_85 wrote:I will not 'remember' that there is only one God, but that there is no God. That a God or many Gods or anything God-like exists is unproven. How on earth do you know that the Bible is the right book though, couldn't it be the Koran? If you lived in Cairo you'd believe that the Koran was the only proper book and everything else were wrong. You have no real reason to believe the book of your religion to be the only right one.
And as for evolution - just buy a book on it.
klewlis wrote:Democritus wrote:What would you say if Jesus appeared before you, and told you something that was at odds with the Bible?
I would question the apparition's identity. How would I know it is Jesus? If he is saying something contradictory to the Bible, he could not be. Paul himself said that if any spirit comes preaching a gospel different from the one given, that spirit is not from God.
I am a fundamentalist Christian and am very much aware of my own limitations when it comes to perceiving the truth.
I also believe in evolution.
Rhuiden wrote:As for evolution, I have read many books on it. I have discussed it with many people. I still have not met anyone who can name one fact about evolution that has been proven true.
Rhuiden wrote:I addition to that, there is always a nagging question about evolution in my mind: Why would a perfect God, who could simply speak something into existence, use such an imperfect means of creating our world?
klewlis wrote:Emma_85 wrote:You have no real reason to believe the book of your religion to be the only right one.
Don't assume. I have plenty of "real" reasons. Unfortunately, discussion of such is nearly always unfruitful since we are starting from opposite premises.
Democritus wrote:Fair enough, but that response sidesteps the question. The point of the question is, who is in charge? God, or the Bible?
If one believes that God cannot do anything that contradicts the Bible, then one is laying down the law, for God. Who tells God what to do? Paul the Apostle? What if God wants to do something that contradicts the Bible? Who will prevent Him?
Democritus wrote:What do you say about Genesis? Creation in six days? Which fundamentalist denominations entertain the idea of an ancient Earth, or the descent of humanity from the apes? The Bible is very clear about these points. Yet the Biblical story conflicts with fossil evidence we find in the Earth.
Democritus wrote:Evolution is not only true, it is openly observable in nature. Most evolution is slow, but some parts of it happen in observable time frames.
Democritus wrote:God created humans, who are imperfect.
klewlis wrote:Turpissimus wrote:If God wrote the Vulgate whether or not directly in Latin God must really suck!
Wasn't it Nietzsche who said that God wrote the worst Greek he had ever read?
' Course, I've never read the Bible in Greek.
Well, we have to understand that most of the authors were Jewish and their first language was Hebrew, not Greek. :)
If I wrote a book in greek it would suck too.
Rhuiden wrote:I have never been able to understand how people can look at the complexity of our world and not see that is was designed by someone or something more advanced and powerful than us. I believe that someone or something is God. The fact that our world exists is proof that there is a God.
Rhuiden wrote:Why would a perfect God, who could simply speak something into existence, use such an imperfect means of creating our world?
Rhuiden wrote:The evidence that has not been proven to be a hoax supports the world-wide flood as described in Genesis.
Emma_85 wrote:Rhuiden, why if there was indeed no evolution would God try to trick us humans? I mean, what would be the point of him burying Dino bones for example or of allowing us to breed dogs?
chiggles wrote:klewlis wrote:Turpissimus wrote:If God wrote the Vulgate whether or not directly in Latin God must really suck!
Wasn't it Nietzsche who said that God wrote the worst Greek he had ever read?
' Course, I've never read the Bible in Greek.
Well, we have to understand that most of the authors were Jewish and their first language was Hebrew, not Greek. :)
If I wrote a book in greek it would suck too.
It may have been in reference to the New Testament.
Democritus wrote:klewlis wrote:Democritus wrote:What would you say if Jesus appeared before you, and told you something that was at odds with the Bible?
I would question the apparition's identity. How would I know it is Jesus? If he is saying something contradictory to the Bible, he could not be. Paul himself said that if any spirit comes preaching a gospel different from the one given, that spirit is not from God. :)
Fair enough, but that response sidesteps the question. The point of the question is, who is in charge? God, or the Bible?
If one believes that God cannot do anything that contradicts the Bible, then one is laying down the law, for God. Who tells God what to do? Paul the Apostle? What if God wants to do something that contradicts the Bible? Who will prevent Him?
I am a fundamentalist Christian and am very much aware of my own limitations when it comes to perceiving the truth.
I also believe in evolution. :)
What do you say about Genesis? Creation in six days? Which fundamentalist denominations entertain the idea of an ancient Earth, or the descent of humanity from the apes? The Bible is very clear about these points. Yet the Biblical story conflicts with fossil evidence we find in the Earth.
Emma_85 wrote:You may have personal reasons for thinking your religions to be the only correct one, but no objective ones.
As I said, if Rhuiden had been living in Cairo at the time of his ‘what’s the point in my life?’-crisis, he would probably not have turned to the Bible, but to the Koran and thought Islam to be the only true religion. He might have had ‘real’ reasons to believe that Islam was the only true religion then too.
Rhuiden, why if there was indeed no evolution would God try to trick us humans? I mean, what would be the point of him burying Dino bones for example or of allowing us to breed dogs?
Rhuiden wrote:A person must first ask Jesus to be his Lord and Saviour, then the cleansing blood of Jesus is applied to that person. Those that don't recognize their need to make this request are not saved and will be cast into Hell.
Rhuiden wrote:I believe Creation was in six literal days. I do not know of any "fundamentalist" donomintions that believe these things. If they did, would they not cease to be "fundamentalist"? Also, what fossil evidence are you referring to? No fossil evidence supports evolution. The evidence that has not been proven to be a hoax supports the world-wide flood as described in Genesis.
copain wrote:If this would really comes true - which I do not believe! - even many christians would go to hell.
(It would be very cramped then there ! :) )
copain wrote:But I can remember the story of the "rich youngling" - the one - you know -who want´s to know "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" And after Jesus told him his requirement he goes sadly away, because he was not willing to fulfil all the requirement Jesus demanded from him
But:
"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"
Do this word´s of Jesus not contradict your comments and hell then
will be a far more spacious place ? :wink:
copain wrote:It is really a daring idea to think there was no evolution and God has created the world as described in the genesis.
It may be possible that God would be able to create this world in six day´s if this pleased him, but then for every human it would be more likely clear that there is a creator!
But God do not want this !
What, if he uses evolution as a - let me say - tool, to veil his existence ? So evolution has happend as a part of God´s creation !
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