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Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

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Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Milito » Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:45 pm

A while back, William Annis introduced me to the Oxyrhynchus Papyri project, and I was digging around on the site yesterday. It linked off to a parent site, which contained yet more Oxyrhynchus papyri. In that part of the site was a page called "A Millenium of Documents", (http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/VExhibiti ... ame_hi.htm), and that in turn, three lines from the top, has a picture of a Latin letter (Syneros to Chius). If you go look at that, and then click on the small picture of the papyrus fragment that comes up, you actually see a letter which appears to have been written during the reign of Augustus :o and you get to check out Latin as it was written then! It is actually pretty clear to read, the only trick being figuring out what the letters are, since they've changed a mite over the past 2000 years.... But it's truly cool to look at, and try to sort out! (Syneros very kindly put dots between the words so that you could tell where they ended.....)<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby klewlis » Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:20 pm

funky.<br /><br />if anyone has trouble finding it because of the frames (as I did, lousy frames), the direct link to the picture is http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/VExhibition/images/e3.jpg<br /><br />
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Jeff Tirey » Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:21 pm

frames are evil.
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Episcopus » Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:19 pm

Agreed. <br /><br />Nice one! This is class...and I caught the final word "facere"! =faire<br /><br />It looks more like Greek than Latin! The capital DELTA, or at least it looks like that, is there : )<br /><br /> :o
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Milito » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:16 pm

It does look so much like the letters are mutated Greek ones! That was one of the cool things about it! I'm now wondering if this is because the guy who wrote the letter generally wrote in Greek, or if all Latin letters looked that way..... But it's hard to find other pictures of Latin papyri with enough clear print available to compare it with.....<br /><br />Kilmeny<br />
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Episcopus » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:32 pm

latin letters do look more like greek<br /><br />or, latin word order<br /><br />look more like greek the latin letters
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Milito » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:50 pm

atque cum interpunctione Latina....<br /><br />look.more.like.greek.the.latin.letters<br /><br />
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Ptolemaios » Wed Jul 30, 2003 7:26 pm

I've a job at the Leiden Institute of Papyrology, so this wasn't the first original text I ever saw, but it's a very fine example. Usually these texts are scraps with only a few letters legible.<br />Most papyri are in Greek though, because most official documents in Egypt were written in Greek.<br /><br /> Eu)/xomai se e)rrw=sqai <br /><br />Ptolemaios
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Episcopus » Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:36 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=6;threadid=326;start=0#2344 date=1059591000]<br />atque cum interpunctione Latina....<br /><br />look.more.like.greek.the.latin.letters<br /><br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />whoa! how is that? is there even a verb there :o
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby mariek » Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:43 am

[quote author=Milito link=board=6;threadid=326;start=0#2305 date=1059572737]<br />A while back, William Annis introduced me to the Oxyrhynchus Papyri project, and I was digging around on the site yesterday. It linked off to a parent site, which contained yet more Oxyrhynchus papyri. In that part of the site was a page called "A Millenium of Documents", (http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/VExhibiti ... ame_hi.htm) ... [/quote]<br /><br />What's a really really neat site! Thanks for sharing this. It's really beautiful, even though I can't read any of it. <br />
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby mariek » Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:48 am

[quote author=klewlis link=board=6;threadid=326;start=0#2306 date=1059574838]<br />if anyone has trouble finding it because of the frames (as I did, lousy frames), the direct link to the picture is http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/VExhibition/images/e3.jpg [/quote]<br /><br />That was very thoughtful of you to provide this direct link to the image. The site is very difficult to manoeuvre around! <br /><br />I found links to a few more fragments on this page http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/VExhibition/vexhframe_hi.htm.<br />
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Nihil » Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:15 am

Wow, that is very interesting! :D Their alphabet does look a bit different than ours. I noticed the delta as well.<br /><br />I can pick out a few words from it at glance such as "facere." "necat," and "itaque," but I'd hate for our modern texts to be written in that way.
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby mariek » Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:34 am

<br />Of course, I'd also have difficulty in making out the letters in Old English! <br />
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Nihil » Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:46 am

Yeah, I know what you mean. A while ago I was looking at a site about Old English, and I couldn't believe it when I first saw it. Luckily, when I read Beowulf in school, it was completely in Modern English. Old English reminds me of Icelandic with the thorn character, eth character, and the "ae" ligature in its alphabet and all. Old English also seems much more Germanic as well, which isn't surprising since most of its literature was written before the Normans conquered them and introduced Norman-French. If you like seeing old literature from different cultures (including Latin), you can find alot of it here: http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/augustana.html<br /><br />But anyway, It's sad to see most of those texts are severly damaged, but that's to be expected after many centuries.
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Skylax » Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:03 am

Here is my reading of the letter. Italics are for the letters I hope I've read correctly without being sure of which word it is. Dots are for letters I can't read. Please correct me !<br /><br />(1) Suneris Chio suo plur(imam) sal(utem dicit) Si v(ales) b(ene) ...co reduxsit ad me ohapim<br />(2) regium mensularium Oxsyry(nchensem?) .mitem qui quidem mecum est locutus<br />(3) de inprobitate ipaphrae s. Itaque nihil ultra loquor quam<br />(4) ne patiarus te propter illas perire Crede mihi, nimia bonitas<br />(5) pernicies homin[ib]us est vel maxsima Deinde ipsi tibei demo(n)strabit<br />(6) qu[a]e rei sit qum illum ad te vocareis set perseuera<br />(7) Qui de tam pusilla summa tam magnum lucrum facit<br />(8) dominum occidere volt Deinde ego clamare debeo si quid video<br />(9) deuom atque hominum<br />(10) tuum erit uindicare ne alio libeat facere<br /><br />Remarks<br />- the "x" has always been written "xs"<br />Line 4 : PATIARUS = PATIARIS ?<br />Line 5 : TIBEI = TIBI<br />Line 6 : QUAE REI should perhaps be QUID REI ? -- VOCAREIS = VOCA(VE)RIS "you will have called" -- SET = SED<br />Line 8 : VIDEO : I'm not sure at all...<br />Line 9 : ALIO must be DAT sing instead of ALII. It is very infrequent but it can be found.<br /><br />I add an attempt of translation in French. I'm sure someone could translate it into English... It is something about top financiers. "Dallas" in the Ancient World.<br /><br />"Suneris salue bien son cher Chius. Si tu vas bien, c'est bien. ...co a ramené chez moi Ohapis (?), le banquier royal d'Oxyrhynchos, un homme bien doux (?) qui m'a certes parlé de la malhonnêteté d'Ipaphra (?)... c'est pourquoi je ne te dis rien d'autre que (ceci) : ne souffre pas de te perdre pour ces (femmes)-là. Crois-moi, une bonté excessive est pour les hommes une très grande (source de) ruine. Ensuite, il te montrera à toi-même de quoi il s'agit (?) lorsque tu l'auras appelé auprès de toi, mais tiens bon ! Celui qui tire autant de bénéfice d'une si dérisoire somme (d'argent) veut tuer (son) maître. Ensuite Je doit crier, si .... des hommes, ce sera ton rôle de faire une réclamation (en justice) de peur qu'il ne plaise à un autre de le faire."
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Milito » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:40 pm

Right on, Skylax!!<br /><br />I've been thinking I should do this, but haven't gotten around to it - mostly because I'd want to work from paper, and haven't tried to print it out.....<br /><br />A weekend project, for sure! (And in the mean time, I can brush up on some French by reading yours!)<br /><br />Kilmeny<br /><br />
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Milito » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:42 pm

[quote author=Ptolemaios link=board=6;threadid=326;start=0#2350 date=1059593181]<br />I've a job at the Leiden Institute of Papyrology, so this wasn't the first original text I ever saw, but it's a very fine example. Usually these texts are scraps with only a few letters legible.<br />Most papyri are in Greek though, because most official documents in Egypt were written in Greek.<br /><br /> Eu)/xomai se e)rrw=sqai <br /><br />Ptolemaios<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Oh dear.... I think I'm jealous. I've been wondering how one gets into papyrology...........<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Milito » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:43 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=6;threadid=326;start=0#2359 date=1059597360]<br />[quote author=Milito link=board=6;threadid=326;start=0#2344 date=1059591000]<br />atque cum interpunctione Latina....<br /><br />look.more.like.greek.the.latin.letters<br /><br />[/quote]<br />whoa! how is that? is there even a verb there :o<br />[/quote]<br /><br />No, Episcopus, there isn't. :( I used an incomplete sentence.... "And with latin punctuation"<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Koala » Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:36 pm

a (very) free translation of Skylax's french ... <br /><br />Suneris warmly greets his dear Chius. If you are well, that’s good. …co has brought Ohapis to my place, the royal banker of Oxyrhynchos, quite a gentle fellow, who has spoken to me most assuredly of the dishonesty in Ipaphra … that’s why I’m telling you this only: don’t allow yourself to be corrupted for these ladies. Believe me, an excessive amount of goodness in a man is a sure way to ruin. Further, he will show you personally what it’s about, since you will have called him to you, but hold tight! He who derives so much benefit from such a paltry amount of money, wants to kill his master. Further, I must protest, if men’s … , it will be your job to lodge a (legal) complaint, lest no one else wants to do it.
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Skylax » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:34 pm

Thank you so much ! :) Now let's wait for amendments and additions. This text is allusive, so I don't understand fully the point of the story. Maybe the addressee had borrowed (from a servant??? - or is it a special meaning of dominus?) a little money at a very high interest rate?<br /><br />Now, wait and see.
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Ptolemaios » Mon Aug 04, 2003 11:04 am

It took me a few hours, but I've checked the picture, the transcription and the English translation. With help from the P. Oxy.-edition, I've come up with the following emendations:<br /><br />l. 1 Suneris > Suneros; the i isn't curved.<br />l. 1 ...co > Theo; what was read as a c has a small horizontal line in the middle.<br />l. 1 reduxsit > adduxsit<br />l. 1 ohapim > Ohapim (as in the translations, it's a name)<br />l. 2 Oxsyry(nchensem) . mitem > Oxsyrychitem<br />l. 3 ipaphrae > Epaphraes (another person)<br />l. 3 add [no] at the end (crossed out).<br />l. 4 illas > illos; at first, I read illas too, but the a is more triangular (e.g. ad in l. 1).<br />l. 5 maxsima > maxsuma<br />l. 5 ipsi > ipse (because of a small curve at the bottom and an equally small horizontal line it can't be a i).<br />l. 6 qu[a]e > qu[i]t<br />l. 6 persevera > perservera (read: persevera)<br />l. 9 Crossed out is the following text: fidem.si.tu.[.].ista.non.cuibis<br /><br />In this edition, the translation is:<br />Syneros to his friend Chius very many greetings. If you are well, fine. Theon brought to me Ohapim, the public banker of Oxyrhynchus, who spoke with me concerning Epaphras' wickedness. Therefore I say nothing more than "do not let yourself come to ruin on their account". Believe me, excessive generosity brings disaster, perhaps more than anything else, on men. He himself will show you later the meaning of the affair when you have summoned him to you. But stick to it: he who makes so great a profit from so trifling a sum is willing to kill his master. Then I ought to cry out, if my perceptions are to be trusted, "Heaven and earth!" It will be your task to exact punishment lest it prove attractive to another to do it.<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]Eu)/xomai se e)rrw=sqai[/face]<br /><br />Ptolemaios
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Skylax » Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:42 pm

Well done !<br /><br />Here is the text with your emendations :<br /><br />(1) Suneros Chio suo plur(imam) sal(utem) Si v(ales) b(enest) Theo adduxsit ad me Ohapim<br />(2) regium mensularium Oxsyrychitem qui quidem mecum est locutus<br />(3) de inprobitate Epaphraes Itaque nihil ultra loquor quam [|no|]<br />(4) ne patiarus te propter illos perire Crede mihi, nimia bonitas<br />(5) pernicies homin[ib]us est vel maxsuma Deinde ipse tibei demo(n)strabit<br />(6) qu[i]t rei sit qum illum ad te vocareis set perse{r}uera<br />(7) Qui de tam pusilla summa tam magnum lucrum facit<br />(8) dominum occidere volt Deinde ego clamare debeo si quid video<br />(9) deuom atque hominum [|fidem.si.tu.[.]ista.non.cuibis|]<br />(10) tuum erit uindicare ne alio libeat facere
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Ptolemaios » Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:59 pm

Some more remarks:<br />some editors prefer to read b(enest) in l.1;<br />'dicit' is never added in l.1, I think because it is a often occuring phrase.<br /><br />The original publication was in the Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies 17 (1970), p. 136 sqq. More backgroudn information there.<br /><br />Skylax, since you showed some very acute reading skills and a knowledge of the Leiden Bracket System, may I assume you have some experience in Papyrology?<br /><br /><br />Ptolemaios<br />
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Skylax » Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:36 pm

ok. Dicit has been deleted. -st has been added to bene.<br /><br />
may I assume you have some experience in Papyrology
<br /><br />Say interest...<br /><br />Moreover, I have gained some experience in reading 17th-18th century AD documents as I help friends making up their genealogy.<br /><br />Nothing formal.<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]e)/rrwso[/face]
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Milito » Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:34 pm

Thanks very much to Ptolemaios and Skylax for all their work on hammering out what exactly the words on the papyrus are and what the translations are, and to Koala as well, for translation! I very much appreciate the work you've all put in on it!<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Episcopus » Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:05 pm

There's an interesting hand written 159 page Latin book on ebay - it's possible that it interest some persons here :D<br /><br />http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3541933792&category=269<br />
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby benissimus » Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:55 am

I WANT IT!
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Keesa » Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:59 am

I just wanted to say that I think it's fascinating the way you all bounced ideas around and added and changed words and meanings for each other until you came up with something that made sense! Call me a beginner, but I couldn't even read the letters on the papyrus! :'( Ah, well. There's time to learn! <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Cool Picture of OLD Latin!

Postby Milito » Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:35 pm

[quote author=Keesa link=board=6;threadid=326;start=15#3027 date=1060257589]<br />I just wanted to say that I think it's fascinating the way you all bounced ideas around and added and changed words and meanings for each other until you came up with something that made sense! Call me a beginner, but I couldn't even read the letters on the papyrus! :'( Ah, well. There's time to learn! <br /><br />Keesa<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Part of the papyrus problem is the shape of the letters. They're quite different from the ones we're used to now. I could pick out some words, but that was mostly because I could recognize part of them from tripping over them a time or six in studying, and figure out what the letters (probably) were..... Nothing like Skylax or Ptolemaios, though! The "s" keeps throwing me, big time!<br /><br />Kilmeny
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