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need some help with grammar

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need some help with grammar

Postby Clemens » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:02 pm

Hi,

I came across some tricky passages of a work by Dion Chrysostomos. The text is part of a school book I use and there it says that it is taken from D. Chr. IX 14-16 and the authors may have changed some passages...

[face=SPIonic]Dioge/nhj de\ ble/pwn a)/ndra tina\ e)k tou= stadi/ou badi/zonta meta\ mollw=n e(tai/rwn kai\ mhde\ e)pibai/nonta th=j gh=j, a)lla\ fero/menon u(po\ tou= o)/xlou, tou\j de\ a)kolouqou=ntaj kai\ bow=ntaj, a)/llouj de/ tinaj phdw=ntaj u(po\ xara=j kai\ ta\j xei=raj ai)/rontaj pro\j to\\n ou)rano/n, tou\j de\ e)piba/llontaj tw=| a)ndri\ stefa/nouj, h)rw/thse, ti/j e)stin o( qo/ruboj kai\ ti/ e)ge/neto.
(O de\ e)/fh: Nikw=men, Dio/genej, tw=n a)ndrw=n to\ sta/dion.
[/face]


I've problems with the bold parts:

1. I'm not too sure what to do with "...ti/ e)ge/neto." Does it mean something like "how did the noise arise"? But I've always thought "ti/" just meant "what"...

2. I'm a bit confused about the genitive plural "tw=n a)ndrw=n". Is it an objective of the verb nikaw? But in this case I would have expected an accusative case... :?

I hope someone can help me

Thanks in advance

Clemens
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Re: need some help with grammar

Postby annis » Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:05 am

Clemens wrote:1. I'm not too sure what to do with "...ti/ e)ge/neto." Does it mean something like "how did the noise arise"? But I've always thought "ti/" just meant "what"...


And also "why," as here, I think.

2. I'm a bit confused about the genitive plural "tw=n a)ndrw=n". Is it an objective of the verb nikaw? But in this case I would have expected an accusative case... :?


The genitive modifies the following noun, "race (course)" which is accusative.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby Clemens » Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:34 am

And also "why," as here, I think.

Ok, so does it mean: "he asked, who he was and why had the noise arisen"?

The genitive modifies the following noun, "race (course)" which is accusative.

"Diogenes, we have won the race of the men." Is that right?

Thank you

Clemens
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Postby annis » Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:41 am

Clemens wrote:Ok, so does it mean: "he asked, who he was and why had the noise arisen"?


First, it's a direct quote (even if there are no quote marks), so watch the tense.

Also, the ti/s here isn't "who" but "what", agreeing with qo/rubos, "what's the noise?"
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby Clemens » Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:27 pm

First, it's a direct quote (even if there are no quote marks), so watch the tense.

Hmm, this is somewhat surprising since I'm sure that they would have used quote marks if they meant it to be direct speech... :?

Also, the ti/s here isn't "who" but "what", agreeing with qo/rubos, "what's the noise?"

Oh, until now I've always thought ti/s would just mean "who".

Thanks again

Clemens
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Postby Demetrius » Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:59 pm

[face=spionic] ti/ e)ge/neto [/face] simply means "what happened?". And Annis is right: it is a direct quote. e)ge/neto is a (past indic.) type of "gignomai", which means "fio (in Latin), become, be born, be made, take place, happen".
Last edited by Demetrius on Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Clemens » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:13 pm

And Annis is right: it is a direct quote.


Can you please tell me the reason why you are sure that it's a direct quote? I mean when I come across another passage like that I want to be prepared...;-)
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Postby Demetrius » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:23 pm

A direct quote without quote marks is very common in greek texts. I think that quote marks are obligatory only when the author quotes a larger speech of another person, as it happens eg. in [face=spionic]dhmhgori/ai[/face] by Thucydides. It is obvious that the two phrases here are direct questions. If the questions were indirect, we would see something like this: [face=spionic]h)rw/thse ti/na ei=)nai to\n qo/rubon kai\ ti/ gene/sqai[/face] or [face=spionic]h)rw/thse ti/j ei)/h o( qo/ruboj kai\ ti/ ge/noito[/face]. What is more, the comma here ("[face=spionic]h)rw/thse[/face], [face=spionic]ti/j[/face] etc.") maybe replaces the quote marks.
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Postby Clemens » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:56 pm

Yes, that's true but you have to keep in mind that this text is a part of a school book for beginner courses. And there are always quote marks because the authors don't want do confuse the students. So I would be very surprised if they forgot to use them in this case. That's all...

Thank you anyway...:)

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