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Multiple irregular adjectives

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Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:13 am

I've gotten to irregular adjectives. Yeesh! It's quite hairy.<br /><br />How do you read a sentence with multiple irregular adjectives?<br /><br />Cëna nüllius alterïus ancillae est bona =<br /> The dinner of neither of the maids is good.<br />or<br /> No dinner of either of the maids is good.<br />
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby bingley » Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:06 am

Alter altera alterum means 'the other' not 'neither'. 'Neither' would be neuter neutra neutrum.<br /><br />The fact that they're irregular doesn't let them off the hook. They still have to agree in gender, case, and number with their nouns. Thus:<br /><br />The dinner of neither of the maids is good.<br /><br />Cena neutrius ancillae bona est. (The dinner of neither maid is good)<br /><br />No dinner of the maids is good.<br />Nulla cena ancillarum bona est <br /><br />No dinner of either maid is good.<br />Nulla cena ullae ancillae bona est.<br />
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:43 am

<br />This is obviously a tricky part of Latin! I've looked at your three examples and they make sense to me, I see how the adjectives agree with their noun.<br /><br /><br />So now knowing this, let me try my original sentence again. I assume both "nullius" and "alterius" apply to ancillae since these two adjectives are Genitive. nullus, nulla, nullum = none, no. alter, altera, alterum = the one, the other<br /><br />Cena nullius alterius ancillae est bona.<br />Dinner of no other maid is good.<br /><br />Is this better?<br /><br /><br />
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby benissimus » Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:23 am

That is a tricky sentence. <br /><br />Cëna nüllius alterïus ancillae est bona would literally be "No one's dinner of the other maid is good" which just doesn't make sense...
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:34 am

They seem a little easier when used in their idiomatic form (like, alter...alter...). I have difficulties when adjectives like alter or alius are used individually. <br /><br /><br />Marcus nulli alii mendio pecunium dat.<br />Marcus gives money to no other beggar.<br /><br />Episcopus nulli alli <scriptor> laudat.<br />Episcopus praises no other writer.<br />Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to decline the 3rd decl noun scriptor to ACC.<br /><br />
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby Episcopus » Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:00 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=317;start=0#2157 date=1059464603]<br /><br />Cena nullius alterius ancillae est bona.<br />Dinner of no other maid is good.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />I'd read it 'the dinner of no other maid is good' like you ;D<br /><br />It's hard because always with irregular adjectives and 1st and 2nd dec. nouns and adjectives it looks as if they are not related i.e the -ae of the 1st goes with -ius (G) and -i (D)<br /><br />I hate these damn adjectives...almost as bad as the passive!
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby Skylax » Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:27 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=317;start=0#2157 date=1059464603]<br /><br /><br />Cena nullius alterius ancillae est bona.<br />Dinner of no other maid is good.<br /><br />Is this better?<br /><br /><br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Definitely right.<br /><br />Here, nullius alterius isn't Genitive of nulla altera (a phrase that doesn't make sense) but of nulla alia, for the Genitive ali:us is commonly replaced by alterius, i. e. the Gen. of alter, see BLD para 109 note b. (page 47, above), to avoid a risk of confusion with the Nominative alius.<br /><br />By the way, these adjectives are said "irregular" because they aren't adjectives at all. These words are also used as pronouns, so they have got the Gen. sing -ius and the Dat. sing. -i of all other pronouns.<br />BLD says alius... alius... "one... another..." It can be said without further noun : in that case, alius is clearly a pronoun. (Few Latin words are only pronouns. Almost all pronouns can be also used as adjectives).<br /><br />Speaking of neuter, did you see that it is the origin of "neuter" the name of the gender? It was neutrum (genus) (in the neuter gender), meaning "neither gender", i. e. neither feminine nor masculine. <br /><br />Now, let's rest for a while... ;)
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:47 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=317;start=0#2158 date=1059467032]<br />That is a tricky sentence. <br /><br />Cëna nüllius alterïus ancillae est bona would literally be "No one's dinner of the other maid is good" which just doesn't make sense...<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Here you translate alter/alterius as "other".<br /><br />How would you translate the sentence "Cena nullius aliius ancillae est bona"?<br /> Dinner of no one maid is good. ???<br /><br />I don't understand how alius and alter differ when you use each alone (i.e. not in a alius...alius or a alter...alter formation).<br /><br />Added: I was asking about using alius alone in the sentence above, but Skylax answered the question by saying alterius is used in place of the GEN of alius.<br /><br />BLD gives these definitions:<br /> alius: other, another (of several)<br /> alter: the one, the other (of two)<br /><br /><br />
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:03 pm

[quote author=Skylax link=board=3;threadid=317;start=0#2169 date=1059485239]<br />Here, nullius alterius isn't Genitive of nulla altera (a phrase that doesn't make sense) but of nulla alia, for the Genitive ali:us is commonly replaced by alterius, i. e. the Gen. of alter, see BLD para 109 note b. (page 47, above), to avoid a risk of confusion with the Nominative alius.<br />[/quote]<br />Oh, I missed that point. So the alterius in the sentence is really the GEN of alius. Then I don't have to worry about figuring out the difference between alius and alter when they're used alone; in either case, they translate to "other". <br />
<br />Speaking of neuter, did you see that it is the origin of "neuter" the name of the gender? It was neutrum (genus) (in the neuter gender), meaning "neither gender", i. e. neither feminine nor masculine.<br />
<br />Yes! I did think about that when I learned that neuter meant neither of the two, or neither masculine or feminine. But I didn't know it came from neutrum genus. Genus must be one of those oddball -us nouns that aren't masculine?<br />
<br />Now, let's rest for a while... ;)<br />
<br />Hehe... I was up rather late last night trying to figure all this out. I just can't get enough of Latin or find enough time to study.<br />
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby Skylax » Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:15 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=317;start=0#2186 date=1059494607]<br />Genus must be one of those oddball -us nouns that aren't masculine?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Oops ! Sorry ! It is a noun of the 3rd declension. The Genitive is generis. But please, please, don't worry !
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby benissimus » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:07 am

-us nouns of the second declension are *I think* always masculine.<br /><br />-us nouns of the third declension are almost always neuter, unless the "u" is long (in which case it is usually feminine).<br /><br />-us nouns of the fourth declension are almost always masculine, with a few feminines.
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby ingrid70 » Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:32 am

-us in the second declension is almost always masculine, but also with a few exceptions (of course :))<br /><br />-names of countries, towns, islands and trees are female<br />e.g. Aegyptus, Corinthus, Delus, pirus<br /><br />humus, soil (I think, sorry, working from my Dutch grammarbook) is female<br /><br />vulgus, people, mob is neuter (and therefore has -us in the acc sing too.<br /><br />And then I skipped the part on words of Greek origin keeping their original gender.<br /><br />But don't worry, Mariek, if you encounter those in D'Ooge, he'll mention their gender. <br /><br />Ingrid
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby benissimus » Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:58 am

Oh yes, how could I forget vulgus??? It is sometimes masculine though :P
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby mariek » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:22 pm

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=317;start=0#2286 date=1059553960]<br />And then I skipped the part on words of Greek origin keeping their original gender.<br />But don't worry, Mariek, if you encounter those in D'Ooge, he'll mention their gender. <br />[/quote]<br />Greek nouns? Hmmm...that explains why there's a section on Greek nouns in my Latin dictionary! <br />
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Re:Multiple irregular adjectives

Postby Skylax » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:26 pm

virus, viri "poison" is neuter too. Hence a virus (rabies virus etc.).
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