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help with exercises *9/6*

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help with exercises *9/6*

Postby Aurelia » Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:21 pm

I was just working on some Greek-English exercises and I came across this:
[face=spionic]toi=n phgai=n[/face]
it's in the dual, according to my charts. Yet isn't dual used for nouns that come in pairs like eyes, ears, nostrils, shoes, etc.?
so it would translate into "of/to the two-fountains"

Also, in an English-Greek exercise, would "the two-fountains" be [face=spionic]tw= phga/[/face]?

Hehe, I'm starting slow but I'm learning fast!

PS-I'm using a textkit book called "A First Greek Course" by Sir William Smith.
Last edited by Aurelia on Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: help with 1st declention exercises

Postby annis » Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:26 pm

Aurelia wrote:Yet isn't dual used for nouns that come in pairs like eyes, ears, nostrils, shoes, etc.?


These duals persisted longest, but in the earlier language at least any time you had two of something the dual could be used.

so it would translate into "of/to the two-fountains"


Yes.

Also, in an English-Greek exercise, would "the two-fountains" be [face=spionic]tw= phga/[/face]?


Yes again. :)
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Postby Aurelia » Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:49 pm

can I check a couple more? I know they don't want lists of homework so I'll just put up a couple to make sure I'm on the right track (I didn't know how to say "they" so I'll post the ones that have "they" in them)

English-Greek

They admire the justice of the queen.
[face=spionic]qaumazei th=s basilei/as.[/face]

They give a fountain to the two-Muses.
[face=spionic]dideasi phghn toi=n Mou=sain[/face]
Last edited by Aurelia on Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Titus Marius Crispus » Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:16 am

Aurelia wrote:They admire the justice of the queen.


[face=spionic]qoumazei th=s basilei/as.[/face]
Shouldn't that be

[face=spionic]qauma/zousi th\n th=j basilei/aj di/khn[/face]

?


[face=SPIonic]
qauma/zw
qauma/zeij
qauma/zei
qauma/zomen
qauma/zete
qauma/zousi
[/face]
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Postby Aurelia » Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:34 am

oops, I accidentally left out that part. I made a note next to that so I must have missed it. thanks, Titus! I also see now I used the wrong sigma at the end of [face=spionic]th=j[/face] and [face=spionic]basilei/aj[/face]

Correction:
[face=spionic]qauma/zousi th\n th=j basilei/aj di/khn[/face]
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Postby Emma_85 » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:58 am

These duals persisted longest, but in the earlier language at least any time you had two of something the dual could be used.


In which texts would I come across such a use of the dual? I don't think I've seen it in Homer, but maybe I just missed it...
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Postby annis » Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:29 pm

Emma_85 wrote:In which texts would I come across such a use of the dual? I don't think I've seen it in Homer, but maybe I just missed it...


It occurs in Epic most often, I think. Homer does use it. In Iliad A I think most of the examples are when speaking of the two sons of Atreus (Agamemnon and Menelaos), and then again the two sent to Achilles to fetch The Girl.
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Postby Bert » Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:51 pm

Also, in line 6 [face=SPIonic]diasth/thn [/face]concerning Achilles and agamemnon.
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Postby Skylax » Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:55 pm

Using dual was also an Attic aristocratic tic, in order to show refined manners.
Many duals in Plato's Euthydemus, in which Socrates speaks with two brothers [face=SPIonic]Eu)qu/dhmoj[/face] and [face=SPIonic]Dionuso/dwroj[/face]

There are also [face=SPIonic]tw\ qew/[/face], the Two-Gods, Castor and Pollux.
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Postby Aurelia » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:18 pm

Okay here's some more from Exercise II (I didn't want to make another post for fear of hogging the board):

Greek-English
[face=spionic]thl= a)petnl=[/face]
to the virtue[/u]
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Postby Aurelia » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:19 pm

Okay here's some more from Exercise II (I didn't want to make another post for fear of hogging the board):

Greek-English
[face=spionic]th=| a)reth=|[/face]
to the virtue


[face=spionic]th\n )Aqhna=n[/face]
The Athena (acc)

English-Greek
For the soul
[face=spionic]th= yuxh=[/face]

Greek-English sentences
[face=spionic]h( th=j basilei/aj fili/a e)sti\ timh\ th=| nu/mfh|.[/face]
The friendship of the queen is hounour to the bride.

[face=spionic]th\n do/can th=j )areth=j e)/xousin[/face]
He has the reputation of the virtue.

English-Greek sentences
Athena praises the wisdom of the Muses.
[face=spionic]h( A)qhna )epainei= th/n tw=n Mousw=n sofi/an[/face]
-I just wanted to make sure I'm putting the Posessive Genitive in the right place.
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Postby Titus Marius Crispus » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:45 pm

salve, Aurelia.

SPIonic for iota-subscript is the 'pipe' character (shift + backslash).

On the "to virtue", rho is 'r', not 'p'.
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Postby Emma_85 » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 pm

Hmm... maybe I should take a look at the dual forms, they must be somewhere in my big grammar (argh, how I hate the big one :wink: ). My teacher said we shouldn't learn them because they hardly ever crop up only with things like eyes, ears and hands. He didn't think they were worth learning it seems.


Aurelia, tes basileas is singular, the friendship of the queen, and exousin is plural, they have ...
Otherwise it looks like you are doing fine :) . For iota subscript type | after the iota.
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Postby Aurelia » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:55 pm

multas gratias, Tite Emmaque. I fixed them.

PS-I won't be doing this very often, just once in a while to make sure I'm doing things right. :wink:
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Postby Titus Marius Crispus » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:58 pm

Aurelia wrote:[face=spionic]h( th=j basilei/aj fili/a e)sti\ timh\ th= nu/mfh.[/face]
The friendship of the queens is hounour to the bride.


Queen would be singular there.

Aurelia wrote:[face=spionic]th\n do/can th=j )areth=j e)/xousin[/face]
He has the reputation of the virtue.


[face=spionic]e)/xousin[/face] is plural there (They have..). The definite article can also be used idefinitely with abstract nouns (I dunno if that's the right way to say that, but what I mean is [face=spionic]h( a)reth/[/face] can translate as 'virtue'.)

Aurelia wrote:Athena praises the wisdom of the Muses.
[face=spionic]h( A)qhna )epainei= th/n tw=n Mousw=n sofi/an[/face]
-I just wanted to make sure I'm putting the Posessive Genitive in the right place.


That's fine. You can also repeat the article of the modified noun and then put the modifying noun ([face=spionic]th\n sofi/an th\n tw=n Mousw=n[/face]) or put the article of the modified noun after the modified noun ([face=spionic]sofi/an th\n tw=n Mousw=n[/face]).

The way you did it emphasizes the possession. The other two make it more of an afterthought, the last being more afterthought-ish.
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Postby Aurelia » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 pm

okay a little bit of exercise III:

Greek-English
[face=spionic]oi( poli=tai tou\j stratiw/taj fobou=ntai[/face]
The citizens fear the soldiers.

[face=spionic]oi( neani/ai h)san tou= sofistou= maqhtai/[/face]
The young men were pupils of the sophist.

questions not related to the sentences:
-In Greek, do I need to capitalize the first letter of each sentence?
-Also in Greek, do I need to punctuate my sentence?

Thanks!
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Postby annis » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:27 pm

Aurelia wrote:Greek-English
[face=spionic]oi( poli=tai tou\j stratiw/taj fobou=ntai[/face]
The citizens fear the soldiers.


[face=spionic]o)rqo/n[/face] ("correct")

[face=spionic]oi( neani/ai h)san tou= sofistou= maqhtai/[/face]
The young men were pupils of the sophist.


[face=spionic]kai\ o)rqo/n[/face]. However, I might put the genitive phrase after the noun it modifies when that noun doesn't have the article: [face=spionic]maqhtai\ tou= sofistou=[/face], assuming "pupil" doesn't need an article, a matter about which I'm not entirely sure right now.

-In Greek, do I need to capitalize the first letter of each sentence?


No. Just names. Longer texts will generally capitalize the first word in a paragraph.

-Also in Greek, do I need to punctuate my sentence?


Yep.
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Postby Aurelia » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:34 pm

Quote:
[face=spionic]oi( neani/ai h)san tou= sofistou= maqhtai/. [/face]
The young men were pupils of the sophist.


[face=spionic]kai\ o)rqo/n.[/face] However, I might put the genitive phrase after the noun it modifies when that noun doesn't have the article: [face=spionic]maqhtai\ tou= sofistou=[/face], assuming "pupil" doesn't need an article, a matter about which I'm not entirely sure right now.


Oh that was Greek-English too, sorry. I was just making sure I translated that into English right since it was a little bit confusing. :oops:
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Postby annis » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:49 pm

Aurelia wrote:Oh that was Greek-English too, sorry. I was just making sure I translated that into English right since it was a little bit confusing. :oops:


Cool. That means the author of your textbook thinks that's fine. Good to know.
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Postby Aurelia » Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:35 pm

okay, I need some more help.

In my vocabulary list, it says [face=spionic]a)/mpeloj, h([/face]
the [face=spionic]h([/face] throws me off. Why is there a feminine definite article with a masculine word?
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Postby annis » Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:16 pm

Aurelia wrote:In my vocabulary list, it says [face=spionic]a)/mpeloj, h([/face]
the [face=spionic]h([/face] throws me off. Why is there a feminine definite article with a masculine word?


Ah. You must take care not to think that way. The word isn't masculine.

Second declension nouns are usually masculine or neuter, but there are about a dozen which are feminine. Just as there are plenty of first declension nouns (professions in [face=spionic]-thj[/face], for example) which are masculine.

And eventually you'll run into adjective declensions in which the masculine and feminine forms are identical, and are often second declension.

So, the declension is good indicator of gender, but it isn't a perfect indicator.
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Postby Aurelia » Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:35 pm

ok thanks. haha, now that I see it in my book...I need to pay more attention to the notes below my charts. :oops:
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Postby Aurelia » Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:02 am

here's an English-Greek sentence I had trouble on:

Philosophers do not praise wealth.
[face=spionic]oi( filo/sofoi ou) th/n plou=ton epainou=sin.[/face]

-Did I negate that right? Is the "do" in [face=spionic]ou)[/face] implied?
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Postby annis » Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:24 am

Aurelia wrote:Philosophers do not praise wealth.
[face=spionic]oi( filo/sofoi ou) th/n plou=ton epainou=sin.[/face]


[face=spionic]oi( filo/sofoi ou) to\n plou=ton e)painou=sin.[/face]

Did I negate that right? Is the "do" in [face=spionic]ou)[/face] implied?


Yes. English requires helping verbs for negation, but Greek does not.
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Postby Aurelia » Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:35 am

oi( filo/sofoi ou) to\n plou=ton e)painou=sin.
whoops, that was a typo. I wrote it right in my notebook. thanks for your help, annis!
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Postby Aurelia » Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:48 am

Okay here's some more I had trouble with:

Greek-English
[face=spionic]ta\ tw=n qew=n dw=ra u(po\ tw=n a)nqrw/pwn qauma/zetai.[/face]

The gifts of the gods are admired by men.
-doesn't [face=spionic]qauma/zetai[/face] mean "is admired" and not "are admired"?

[face=spionic]ta\ i)/a e)painei=tai u(po\ th=s nu/mfhs.[/face]

(the) Violets are praised by the bride.
-I'm not sure what I was thinking when I put a mark by this sentence. Looking at it now I don't see any problem with it, but I'll post it anyway :)

English-Greek
The remedy was the cause of death to the queen.

[face=spionic]to/ farmakon h/=n thn ai)tian tou= qanatou th=| basileiai.[/face]
-Should I have made [face=spionic]th=| basileia[/face] genitive, since it was the queen's death?

The philosopher does not love gold.

[face=spionic] o( filo/sofoj to/n xroson ou) filou=sin.[/face]

-In general, how does Greek word order compare to Latin word order?

thanks,
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Postby chad » Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:51 am

hi aurelia, someone advanced like Will will answer all your qns i'm sure, but just in case you want to pre-empt them, here's a few quick suggestions :)

doesn't qauma/zetai mean "is admired" and not "are admired"?


yep, but neuter plural subjects like "the gifts" can go with either singular or plural verbs... it's weird...

The remedy was the cause of death to the queen.

to/ farmakon h/=n thn ai)tian tou= qanatou th=| basileiai.
-Should I have made th=| basileia genitive, since it was the queen's death?


just a few things... if you're saying "x was y" (or "x is y" or something like that), "y" stays in the nominative, rather than going into the accusative... you put "to the queen" correctly in the dative: see section II of the definition of ai)/tioj:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... %3D%232778

The philosopher does not love gold.

o( filo/sofoj to/n xroson ou) filou=sin.


check the last word: you've put the verb in the plural. (also check the spelling of "gold")... :)

as for the word order in greek, have a look at pages 100-103 of sidgwick's "introduction to greek prose composition" here on textkit: he sets it out really well. :)
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Postby annis » Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:58 pm

Aurelia wrote:In general, how does Greek word order compare to Latin word order?


Chad has taken care of most of your questions, but I'll comment on this briefly.

The word orders of Latin and Greek are quite different. I've already noticed your tendency to shift the verb to the final position of the sentence, which you should avoid as the default.

Greek word order is a tricky subject, as much a matter of style as grammar, so for now I'd recommend you follow a more English word order, with the addition that the word or phrase you wish to emphasize most goes first rather than last. The order Subject - Verb - Object(s) is the best neutral word order for Greek for beginners.
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Postby Aurelia » Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:27 pm

The word orders of Latin and Greek are quite different. I've already noticed your tendency to shift the verb to the final position of the sentence, which you should avoid as the default.

Yes I did that because I noticed that in some of the Greek-English exercises the author did that.
Thanks for explaining that to me.
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