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Unt 3 Questions.

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Unt 3 Questions.

Postby classicalclarinet » Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:45 am

Regarding Clauses of Purpose, M&F rattles on about Primary and Secondary Tenses and how the verbs in the independent and dependent clauses always go toghether with their counterparts. In contrast, my Wheelock text makes no distinction toward that whatsoever, and makes the subject MUCH simpler. :P Does this tense-dividing matter much?
For example, M&F diffrentiates how the Perfect tense is used in both categories, i.e. perfect in the Primary Sequence translates in English as "XX has XXed" and in the Secondary Sequence simply"XX Xxed".

Can anyone clear this up for me?

p.s. The vocab notes says that Pugnare with Cum means fight AGAINST. Then how does one say fight with, as allies?
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Re: Unt 3 Questions.

Postby benissimus » Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:10 am

classicalclarinet wrote:Regarding Clauses of Purpose, M&F rattles on about Primary and Secondary Tenses and how the verbs in the independent and dependent clauses always go toghether with their counterparts. In contrast, my Wheelock text makes no distinction toward that whatsoever, and makes the subject MUCH simpler. :P Does this tense-dividing matter much?
For example, M&F diffrentiates how the Perfect tense is used in both categories, i.e. perfect in the Primary Sequence translates in English as "XX has XXed" and in the Secondary Sequence simply"XX Xxed".

Wheelock's does discuss this on pages 304-305. It is important to understand these so you know the standard, but do not be surprised when you see things that seem to violate the sequence of tenses. It is actually very nearly the same sequence of tenses we use in English (except we use the infinitive a lot).

For example, normally we might say:
"I loved Latin so much that I became insane like Episcopus"
(imperfect + imperfect subjunctive)

but you might also say:
"I loved Latin so much that now I am insane like Episcopus" or "...will be insane like Episcopus".
(imperfect + present subjunctive)

or even:
"I loved Latin so much that I have become insane like Episcopus"
(imperfect + perfect subjunctive)


So you can see that they carry a different meaning, depending on the tenses used. My view is that they are usually close in meaning to English sentences with the same tenses, but the Latin usage of that tense may be more or less common than it is in English.

p.s. The vocab notes says that Pugnare with Cum means fight AGAINST. Then how does one say fight with, as allies?

Either put them both as subject (e.g. deus et amicus pugnant cum malis), or say it a different way:
for example, pugnare una cum "to fight together with (as one)" clearly means on the same side. You could also say something like socii pugnabant "they were fighting together as allies".
Last edited by benissimus on Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby classicalclarinet » Wed Sep 01, 2004 3:34 am

And both the texts say that both the verbs MUST be in the same category. :roll:

But aren't you talking about Result Clauses? Because I didn't see much distinction between present and imperfect in purpose clauses.

Also, is the futureperfect tense considered a 'past' tense? It's constructed from the perfect stem but it seems to be coser to the future tense than to the perfect tense.
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Postby benissimus » Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:15 am

classicalclarinet wrote:And both the texts say that both the verbs MUST be in the same category. :roll:

But aren't you talking about Result Clauses? Because I didn't see much distinction between present and imperfect in purpose clauses.

Purpose clauses nearly always take the imperfect subjunctive if the main verb is in a past tense and the present subjunctive if the main verb is in the present (or sometimes perfect) tense.

Yes, I was talking about result clauses, they are usually the most troublesome when it comes to tenses. Which of the Latin sentences seemed to you to have a confusing tense?

Also, is the futureperfect tense considered a 'past' tense? It's constructed from the perfect stem but it seems to be coser to the future tense than to the perfect tense.

Future tense is considered a Future tense and a Perfect tense. There are actually two ways of organizing the tenses:

Past (Imperfect, "Aorist" Perfect, Pluperfect) - Present (Present, Present Perfect) - Future (Future, Future Perfect)
---or---
Primary (Imperfect, Present, Future) - Perfect (Pluperfect, Perfect, Future Perfect)
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Postby classicalclarinet » Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:03 am

Yes, I was talking about result clauses, they are usually the most troublesome when it comes to tenses. Which of the Latin sentences seemed to you to have a confusing tense?


I meant in purpose clauses in general.
Say, can't a sentence such as:
"Hoc dicebat ut eos laudaret."
be either- "he said this to praise the girls" or "he said this in order that he might praise the girls": The first sentence construction doesn't take account the past tense of 'praise' in Latin while the second does.
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Postby classicalclarinet » Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:36 am

Many more questions! :D

"Puellas monebamus ne notas taedis terrerent."
We warned the girls so that they might not terrify the famous with torches.

Multa a servis petivisti sed dona viro bono venia bona dederunt.
You sought much from the slaves, but they gave gifts to the good men, with good kindness.

Saxum magnum in aquaa erat sed in terraa erant saxa magna et multa.
There was a big rock in the water but in the land there were big rocks and more.

Si donum bonum poetae Marco daretis, magna verba cum diligentia scriberet.
If you give a good gift to Marcus the poet, he would write great words with diligence.

Poetae bono si pecuniam dedisses, multa de agris provinciae scripsisset ut incolis magna fama esset.
If you had given money to the good poet, he would have written about fields of the province in order that he might be famous and great to the inhabitants.

Validi incolae patriam et famam in dextris tenent. Per [PER, 'by' (in oaths)] dextram oramus ut magna diligentia cum malis pugnent ut semper Romani simus liberi.
The strong inhabitnats hold the country and fame in theirt right hands. We beg by oaths to fight the evil men with great diligence so that the Romans might be always free.

Pueri ad dextram spectaverant ut gladios malorum oculis viderent.
The boys watched to their right so that they might see the evil swords with their eyes.

Nisi malos saxis gladiisque e cella pepulissemus, patriam cum gloria non tenuissemus, et nunc servi essemus.
If you had not pushed the evil men out of the storeroom with rocks and swords, you would not have held the country with glory and would be now slaves. (why isn't 'servi' in the accusative?)

A reginaa petivisti ut veniam incolis daret.
You sought the Queen so that she might give indulgence to the inhabitants.

Poeta validos in agris monuit ut clarum gladium sub saxo peterent.
The poet warned the strong in the fields so that they might seek the famous sword under the rock. (King Arthur's, perhaps?)

The wretched child desires to listen to the words of the of the poet in order that he may be happy.
Natus miser verba poetae audire optet ut esset laetus.

If you had looked at the girl with your eyes, she would have begged with many tears that you not set sail.
Si puellam cum oculos videsses, multis lacrimis oravisset ne vela dares.

Saxis pugnaveramus ne nautae acerbi feminas poetarum clarorum spectarent.
We have fought with rocks so that the bitter poets might not watch the women of the famous poets. (????:shock: )

Aeneas cum turba incolas Italiae superavit.
Aeneas overcame the throng of the Italian people (inhabitants of Italy).
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Postby bingley » Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:22 am

classicalclarinet wrote:
Saxum magnum in aquaa erat sed in terraa erant saxa magna et multa.
There was a big rock in the water but in the land there were big rocks and more.


Better: There was a big rock in the water but there were also many big rocks on land.



classicalclarinet wrote:Poetae bono si pecuniam dedisses, multa de agris provinciae scripsisset ut incolis magna fama esset.
If you had given money to the good poet, he would have written about fields of the province in order that he might be famous and great to the inhabitants.


Better: ... in order that there might be great fame for the inhabitants. More English, so that the inhabitants would be very famous. Don't forget the dative with esse often means that whatever is in the dative has the subject of esse.

classicalclarinet wrote:Validi incolae patriam et famam in dextris tenent. Per [PER, 'by' (in oaths)] dextram oramus ut magna diligentia cum malis pugnent ut semper Romani simus liberi.
The strong inhabitnats hold the country and fame in theirt right hands. We beg by oaths to fight the evil men with great diligence so that the Romans might be always free.

Romani simus = we Romans

classicalclarinet wrote:Pueri ad dextram spectaverant ut gladios malorum oculis viderent.
The boys watched to their right so that they might see the evil swords with their eyes.

malorum is genitive plural. the swords of the bad (men)

classicalclarinet wrote:Nisi malos saxis gladiisque e cella pepulissemus, patriam cum gloria non tenuissemus, et nunc servi essemus.
If you had not pushed the evil men out of the storeroom with rocks and swords, you would not have held the country with glory and would be now slaves. (why isn't 'servi' in the accusative?)

--emus is a 1st person plural ending. We, not you. The 'object' of esse (more correctly called the complement) is always in the nominative not the accusative. It's logical enough. We and the slaves are the same people so you use the same case.

classicalclarinet wrote:Aeneas cum turba incolas Italiae superavit.
Aeneas overcame the throng of the Italian people (inhabitants of Italy).

Aeneas cum turba. The crowd or throng is with Aeneas. [/i]
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Postby potatohog » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:29 am

classicalclarinet wrote:The wretched child desires to listen to the words of the of the poet in order that he may be happy.
Natus miser verba poetae audire optet ut esset laetus.

Natus miser verba poetae audire optat ut laetus sit.

classicalclarinet wrote:If you had looked at the girl with your eyes, she would have begged with many tears that you not set sail.
Si puellam cum oculos videsses, multis lacrimis oravisset ne vela dares.

Si puellam oculis vidisses, multis lacrimis oravisset ne vela dares.

classicalclarinet wrote:Saxis pugnaveramus ne nautae acerbi feminas poetarum clarorum spectarent.
We have fought with rocks so that the bitter poets might not watch the women of the famous poets. (????:shock: )

We had fought with rocks so that the bitter sailors might not watch the women of the famous poets.

classicalclarinet wrote:Aeneas cum turba incolas Italiae superavit.
Aeneas overcame the throng of the Italian people (inhabitants of Italy).

Aeneas overcame the inhabitants of Italy with a crowd.
Ik hou van aardappelen.
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