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How many cases?

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How many cases?

Postby aemilius » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:24 pm

Hello,<br />In some grammars there are 3 cases added to the 5 well known.<br />They are:<br />ablative - with endings like genitive <br />locative and instrumental - both with endins like dative<br /><br />Are these real cases or just scholar invention?
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Re:How many cases?

Postby Lex » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:58 pm

I've read that linguists believe the original proto-Indo-European language had eight cases, but during its evolution into Greek, the instrumental, locative and ablative were folded into other cases. While assuming Greek has eight cases may be a valid way of remembering how the Greek cases carry multiple burdens, it sounds more like some grammarians were trying to force Greek into a preconceived mold.
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Re:How many cases?

Postby annis » Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:45 pm

[quote author=Lex link=board=2;threadid=314;start=0#2100 date=1059404311]<br />While assuming Greek has eight cases may be a valid way of remembering how the Greek cases carry multiple burdens, it sounds more like some grammarians were trying to force Greek into a preconceived mold.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yeah, this is a very misleading way to think about it, especially as vestigial locative and instrumental cases still existed in Greek in the classical period, expecially in the Epic language.<br /><br />Maybe someone had case-envy after studying Sanskrit.
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Re:How many cases?

Postby Emma_85 » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:48 pm

can't understand why someone would be mad about cases...<br /><br />that's the thing i really like about greek: the declensions are sooo easy (compared to latin). only 4 cases you have to think about (no thought is required for the vocative) and only 3 delensions, really. there are a few different ones for the 3rd, but you can still recognise everything easily, whereas with latin ...urgh... horror...<br /><br />i like greek, it's easy :D
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Re:How many cases?

Postby Bert » Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:49 pm

[quote author=Emma_85 link=board=2;threadid=314;start=0#2121 date=1059418137]<br /> <br />that's the thing i really like about greek: the declensions are sooo easy (compared to latin). (snip)<br /><br />i like greek, it's easy :D<br />[/quote]<br />I like Greek too, its enjoyable, but I am not smart enough to say:" Its sooo easy". But then, I don't know Latin to compare it to.
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Re:How many cases?

Postby bingley » Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:16 am

But, but, but, the verbs :o<br /><br />I once worked out at school that there were something like 700 bits to each verb, if you count all the declensions for the participles. Granted some bits are the same, but even so.
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Re:How many cases?

Postby aemilius » Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:45 am

[quote author=William Annis link=board=2;threadid=314;start=0#2113 date=1059410733]<br /><br /><br />Yeah, this is a very misleading way to think about it, especially as vestigial locative and instrumental cases still existed in Greek in the classical period, expecially in the Epic language.<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />And what about the ablative? I know that Latin has it.<br /><br />As for me I think the use of ablative, locative and instrumental helps in learning Greek. <br /><br />Aemilius
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Re:How many cases?

Postby Ptolemaios » Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:24 am

The thing is, ther is no ablative in Greek; there is no strict correspondence between the ablative in Latin and any single case in Greek. For example: where Latin uses the ablative absolute, Greek has the genitive absolute. But in + abl. in Latin corresponds to en + dat. in Greek.<br /><br /> Eu)/xomai se e)rrw=sqai <br /><br />Ptolemaios
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Re:How many cases?

Postby klewlis » Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:59 pm

[quote author=bingley link=board=2;threadid=314;start=0#2148 date=1059448591]<br />But, but, but, the verbs :o<br /><br />I once worked out at school that there were something like 700 bits to each verb, if you count all the declensions for the participles. Granted some bits are the same, but even so.<br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br /><br />yeah... those verbs can kill.... someone once gave me a very handy chart with ALL the forms on one page... for koine, not classical, but it was SO great.
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Re:How many cases?

Postby annis » Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:02 pm

[quote author=bingley link=board=2;threadid=314;start=0#2148 date=1059448591]<br />I once worked out at school that there were something like 700 bits to each verb, if you count all the declensions for the participles. Granted some bits are the same, but even so.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Come now! Many bits are the same. If a verb ends in one of [face=SPIonic]-meqa, -mai, -mhn, -tai, -to, -ntai, -nto, -te, -sqe[/face] then you know a very great deal. The 700 bits are all completely interrelated.
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Re:How many cases?

Postby bingley » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:14 am

Ha! You try worrying at a tender and impressionable age that someone might ask you about dual dative aorist middle participles. :D
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Re:How many cases?

Postby annis » Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:30 pm

[quote author=bingley link=board=2;threadid=314;start=0#2274 date=1059545670]<br />Ha! You try worrying at a tender and impressionable age that someone might ask you about dual dative aorist middle participles. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]lusame/noiin[/face];<br /> :)<br /><br />I'm not saying it's easy. Just not as hard as "700 bits" implies.
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Re:How many cases?

Postby Keesa » Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:23 am

Ouch...this is a worrisome conversation. 700 seems like an awfully large number...I hope Greek is a little easier to learn than it sounds! <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:How many cases?

Postby bingley » Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:54 am

Don't worry Keesa, I'm just teasing. ;D As William says, a lot of the bits are the same, and I included all the inflections for participles, which decline like adjectives.
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Re:How many cases?

Postby Keesa » Sat Aug 09, 2003 11:42 pm

Well, I'd have learned Greek, anyway-but that's a relief! ;D<br /><br />Keesa
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