Where to begin?

by **Zahra** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:18 am

I am interested in learning latin. unfortunately there are no tutors/courses available in my country. could someone advise me about which books are helpful for absolute beginners and where to begin learning latin? (grammar/ words, etc)

by **mariek** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:50 pm

Welcome, Zahra, to the TextKit Forums! I have just started learning Latin too, and I found some Latin Grammar books on this site. You can download them too, just click on the Learn Latin link near the top of the screen. I'm using the Latin for Beginners book by Benjamin L. D'Ooge which I downloaded on this site. I think it's pretty well organized and has plenty of exercises. I'm sure Episcopus will /bang the table and tell you he's the man and that the book is the best. ;D

by **Episcopus** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:11 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#1868 date=1058975440] I'm sure Episcopus will /bang the table and tell you he's the man and that the book is the best. ;D [/quote] I hope that you imply not that "Latin For Beginners" is not the best! It a Latin Grammar better than a teacher and my situation is the same as yours, but Latin is the best so Benjamin L. D'Ooge fits nicely. ;D

by **mariek** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:15 am

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#1874 date=1058998268] I hope that you imply not that "Latin For Beginners" is not the best![/quote] Calme-toi! I do no such thing. My experience with Latin books is quite limited so it is possible that Latin for Beginners is not the best. However at this point in time, since it also the book I am currently using to learn Latin, Latin for Beginners is the best book I have in my possession. But I never would have been able to do this all alone; I owe much of my comprehension of this ancient language to all the wonderful people on this site.

by **Milito** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:43 pm

[quote author=Zahra link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#1861 date=1058959088] I am interested in learning latin. unfortunately there are no tutors/courses available in my country. could someone advise me about which books are helpful for absolute beginners and where to begin learning latin? (grammar/ words, etc) [/quote] On a completely different tangent than that of books, the Distance Education services from the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada (http://www.dce.uwaterloo.ca/de/index.html) provide some Latin courses, too. That was where I first learned Latin - it was like being in a class in my living room...... Books in addition to Benjamin L. D'Ooge include Wheelock's Latin Grammar (both supported and not-so-supported by people here - but it was what I learned with, and I did find it did the job nicely) and Moreland and Fleischer's "Latin: An Intensive Course", which is harder to find than Wheelock, but provides a lot more detail. I'm now using it as a grammar resource. Then as a grammar supplement to any of the above here, there's Bennett's Latin Grammar, also available in the "Learn Latin" downloads section. It's not an introductory teach-yourself sort of book, but it does provide the answers to all sorts of sticky questions as you go on. Hope this helps, and good luck with the Latin! Kilmeny

by **Episcopus** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:22 pm

In all seriousness though, "Latin For Beginners" by Benjamin L. D'Ooge is all you shall need. Print it out and faites the exercises, be honest with yourself as to whether you should look over certain things or move on and in a few months you'll read latin.

by **mariek** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:12 am

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#1906 date=1059057818] Then as a grammar supplement to any of the above here, there's Bennett's Latin Grammar, also available in the "Learn Latin" downloads section. It's not an introductory teach-yourself sort of book, but it does provide the answers to all sorts of sticky questions as you go on.[/quote] I'll have to check out Bennett's book. I just skimmed through the beginning, it's quite dry, isn't it? It looks more like a reference book.

by **Milito** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:02 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#1932 date=1059091924] I'll have to check out Bennett's book. I just skimmed through the beginning, it's quite dry, isn't it? It looks more like a reference book. [/quote] I used it as a text in a course I took this spring. It was ***very*** dry. But I've since found it very useful as a source of additional explanation. It has a companion, which was the course's second text, called "Bennet's Latin Prose Composition". Kilmeny

by **mariek** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:12 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#1967 date=1059141753] I used it as a text in a course I took this spring. It was ***very*** dry. [/quote] And you still stuck with Latin. That's wonderful. It goes to show they can't weed out determined students with dry books.

by **Milito** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:42 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#1980 date=1059160378] [quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#1967 date=1059141753] I used it as a text in a course I took this spring. It was ***very*** dry. [/quote] And you still stuck with Latin. That's wonderful. It goes to show they can't weed out determined students with dry books. [/quote] Ah, but I'd had 3 courses in Latin already, before meeting Bennett, and it was a secondary text for the minute amounts of translation/composition we were doing. The vast majority of the course was reading through Book 1 of the Aeneid, which was MUCH more interesting! Kilmeny

by **vinobrien** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:50 pm

There is a book called "Read Latin" by Peter Jones which is a really easy read. It lacks detail, skips over an awful lot but is very short and user friendly. It was based on his Latin course that ran in the Daily Telegraph in the UK a few years back. It gives you enough to start reading Latin and to move confidently on to more detailed and drier works on the language. While I think Moreland & Fleischer is the best Latin resource I've come across, you would have to be dedicated to use it as an introduction to the language. I bow to the Bishop on Mr. D'Ooge...

by **Milito** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:04 pm

[quote author=vinobrien link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#2069 date=1059400247] I bow to the Bishop on Mr. D'Ooge... [/quote] The Bishop *is* quite a zealot on that score.....

Kilmeny

by **Episcopus** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:17 pm

[quote author=vinobrien link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#2069 date=1059400247] I bow to the Bishop on DR . D'Ooge... [/quote] I thank you for acknowledgeing my frequently ignored and discarded comments, but His name is in fact Dr. Benjamin D'Ooge. How can he be a mere Mr. ?!

by **vinobrien** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:19 pm

I knew him before he was famous.

by **Episcopus** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:21 pm

[quote author=vinobrien link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#2077 date=1059401961] I knew him before he was famous. [/quote] So you are an old pensioner?

by **vinobrien** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:22 pm

No, I was just born at an early age.

by **Episcopus** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:24 pm

Seriously please joke not at all when on the subject of Dr. D'Ooge.

by **Episcopus** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:31 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#2071 date=1059401054] [quote author=vinobrien link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#2069 date=1059400247] I bow to the Bishop on Mr. D'Ooge... [/quote] The Bishop *is* quite a zealot on that score.....

Kilmeny [/quote] Meaning? mulcetne episcopus D'Ooge an alterum?

by **Milito** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:47 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=292;start=15#2088 date=1059402708] Meaning? mulcetne episcopus D'Ooge an alterum? [/quote] Nemo! Qui dicit ut esse zealot malum sit? Kilmeny

by **Episcopus** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:52 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=292;start=15#2096 date=1059403620] [quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=292;start=15#2088 date=1059402708] Meaning? mulcetne episcopus D'Ooge an alterum? [/quote] Nemo! Qui dicit ut esse zealot malum sit? Kilmeny [/quote] ah...id est grata mihi. nunc volõ ad sepulchrum D'Ooge-i. aha!formam D'Ooge reperio! ea erat inimica mihi!

freak non sum

by **Milito** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:59 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=292;start=15#2097 date=1059403921]

freak non sum [/quote] Ac te amamus quoquomodo........

Kilmeny

by **vinobrien** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:05 pm

de gustibus non est credendum.

by **Episcopus** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:37 pm

[quote author=vinobrien link=board=3;threadid=292;start=15#2102 date=1059404726] de gustibus non est credendum. [/quote] okay id intelligere non possum

by **mariek** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:09 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#2071 date=1059401054] [quote author=vinobrien link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#2069 date=1059400247] I bow to the Bishop on Mr. D'Ooge... [/quote] The Bishop *is* quite a zealot on that score.....

[/quote] Hey, I've learned just enough Latin to contribute this short phrase: Episcopus stadium multum habes.

by **mariek** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:09 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#2071 date=1059401054] [quote author=vinobrien link=board=3;threadid=292;start=0#2069 date=1059400247] I bow to the Bishop on Mr. D'Ooge... [/quote] The Bishop *is* quite a zealot on that score.....

[/quote] Hey, I've learned just enough Latin to contribute this short phrase: Episcopus stadium multum habes.

by **mariek** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:16 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=292;start=15#2096 date=1059403620] Nemo! Qui dicit ut esse zealot malum sit? [/quote] I'm having trouble following this whole discussion, but I just wanted to comment on this word "Nemo". I looked it up and it means "no one, nobody". So the recent movie "Finding Nemo" really means "Finding Nobody"!

by **Episcopus** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:56 pm

Qui dicit ut esse zealot malum sit? my guess, who says to be/that being a zealot is to be bad. Is that subjunctive "sit" ? cur ibi est?

by **Ptolemaios** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:01 pm

And why the 'ut'? Vale. Ptolemaios

by **Episcopus** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:03 pm

[quote author=Ptolemaios link=board=3;threadid=292;start=15#2131 date=1059422509] And why the 'ut'? Vale. Ptolemaios [/quote] heh I just skipped the "ut" - for I know not what it be ;D

Website · by **benissimus** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:28 pm

You crazy Latinates... having all the fun before I even wake up :'( Nemo! Qui dicit ut esse zealot malum sit? I think it means "Nobody! Whoever speaks as a zealot would be bad."

by **Episcopus** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:03 pm

How the truck is it that? Explain! where the 'would' came from! oh yes and I don't appreciate that comment now that I know its true meaning!

by **Milito** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:43 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=292;start=15#2146 date=1059434910] You crazy Latinates... having all the fun before I even wake up :'( Nemo! Qui dicit ut esse zealot malum sit? I think it means "Nobody! Whoever speaks as a zealot would be bad." [/quote] Hmmmm...... Okay, way back, Episcopus asked if I was slamming him, D'Ooge or someone else. What I INTENDED to say was, "Nobody! Who says that it's bad to be a zealot?" I got lazy and didn't check the grammar on indirect statements, going with the general rule "put subordinate clauses into the subjunctive", hence the "sit" (3rd person singular of "esse"). Except that I used an indirect statement, not an indirect question, and "dico", which doesn't take subjunctive, so in retrospect, apparently I should have said, "Nemo! Qui dicit malum esse zealot?" You're supposed to put the subject of the indirect statement into the accusative and turn the verb into an infinitive... which makes it difficult to use the same infinitive as a noun a word or so later..... I still don't think this is right. Back to drawing board................... Kilmeny

by **Episcopus** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:10 pm

Who says that it's bad to be a zealot =what I took it as (check my attempted translation post) :)

by **Milito** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:33 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=292;start=30#2227 date=1059513008] Who says that it's bad to be a zealot =what I took it as (check my attempted translation post) :) [/quote] Yes, I did see that ( ;D) and was very relieved that it had said what I had wanted it to say.... and then it seemed to go all over the map and say all sorts of other things, leaving ME totally confused..... Ah well, these things happen...... :-\ Kilmeny

by **mariek** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:58 am

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=292;start=30#2214 date=1059511438] "Nemo! Qui dicit malum esse zealot?" You're supposed to put the subject of the indirect statement into the accusative and turn the verb into an infinitive... which makes it difficult to use the same infinitive as a noun a word or so later..... [/quote] :-\ Will I ever be able to form such a complex sentence on my own?

Website · by **benissimus** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:37 am

I think it is nice and simple if you just say "Nemo! Qui dicat ut esse zealot malum sit?" No one! Could he who would speak as a zealot be bad? I totally missed out on the question mark by the way. :-\ Figures I would look at the grammar and miss the most simple of punctuation!

by **Milito** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:42 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=292;start=30#2267 date=1059536275] I think it is nice and simple if you just say "Nemo! Qui dicat ut esse zealot malum sit?" No one! Could he who would speak as a zealot be bad? I totally missed out on the question mark by the way. :-\ Figures I would look at the grammar and miss the most simple of punctuation! [/quote] I think you're right - putting the FIRST verb into the subjunctive solves the problem nicely. Much thanks. As for the punctuation.... You're obviously thinking like a true Latin-writer, who wouldn't have used one at all! (And who would probably have wondered what the funny-looking letter was, if he'd seen one....) Kilmeny

by **mariek** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:58 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=292;start=30#2313 date=1059579775] As for the punctuation.... You're obviously thinking like a true Latin-writer, who wouldn't have used one at all! (And who would probably have wondered what the funny-looking letter was, if he'd seen one....) [/quote] On a related note, I find that I am using the Vocative in English similarly to in Latin, i.e. not using the person's name at the beginning of the sentence. I notice that I'm doing this is email to people in my dept. blah blah blah, everyone, blah blah blah or thanks, NameOfPerson, blah blah blah

by **Milito** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:03 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=292;start=30#2318 date=1059580723] On a related note, I find that I am using the Vocative in English similarly to in Latin, i.e. not using the person's name at the beginning of the sentence. I notice that I'm doing this is email to people in my dept. [/quote] Picking up accents appears to be more insidious than it first appears.... You hang out with people who speak with a different accent than your own, and your own morphs into something closer to theirs.... you write in terminology that uses an "accent" different from your own, and again, you morph! I think we observed that Episcopus' word order is doing the same thing.... Kilmeny

by **Episcopus** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:26 pm

DAMN you all going subjunctive on us... It really makes me feel like **** although I be a beginner it is a reflex mental reaction. :'(

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